RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal
"Dawson, Martin" <Martin.Dawson@andrew.com> Tue, 13 March 2007 23:34 UTC
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Subject: RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:29:39 -0500
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Thread-Topic: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal
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From: "Dawson, Martin" <Martin.Dawson@andrew.com>
To: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>, "Winterbottom, James" <James.Winterbottom@andrew.com>
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The word "conflates" has been getting a good airing lately, so I'll give it another shake. The problem I have with this thread is that it is conflating the process of subscriber identity and location. One requirement that hasn't come out of NENA in this forum is that the subscriber identity be delivered with some kind of strong credentials. The reasons for this are at least twofold. Firstly, the requirements were about location - so why would subscriber identity turn up at all? Secondly, one of the things that emergency services don't concern themselves with in responding to callers is whether you really are the individual they claim to be. Anonymous emergency calling via public payphones, SIMless mobiles, and any other point a caller can lay their hands on a device is an accepted feature of the service. Cheers, Martin -----Original Message----- From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu] Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2007 8:17 AM To: Winterbottom, James Cc: Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; Dawson, Martin; Marc Linsner Subject: Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal On Mar 13, 2007, at 4:51 PM, Winterbottom, James wrote: > Hi Hannes, > > >> * We don't do Location Signing at all. >> * Access networks distribute location information to the end host >> at a >> granularity that allows location based routing (unsigned). For most >> countries this is in fact trivial. > > > [AJW] My discussions with carriers and infrastructure providers > seems to > suggest that obtaining location information to provide to end hosts is > going to be far from trivial. When confronted with this hurdle I am > not > so sure that adding signing is that much more work. I agree with Hannes that location granularity matters. Having a single LO for the whole DSLAM (or DHCP server) that says "XYZ County" is a whole lot easier than tracking the wiring panel changes as lines get moved. Signing is not the big deal - getting valid CA-certified signatures is. We all know how many web servers have bogus, expired or self- signed certificates, and not just Joe's Barber Shop and Delicatessen. Take a large campus with thousands of offices. Unless you have a fairly elaborate delegation mechanism, somebody externally will have to sign for each and every room. This means that the organization has to operate a CA that is trusted by the proposed VESA entity, for example. We can't even get delegation to work within Internet2 and Columbia. > > [AJW] It is not clear to me how authenticating millions of users and > their multitude of identity mechanisms is any less daunting than > We have such a mechanism, e.g., within IMS, namely P-Asserted-ID, which is very widely deployed, from what I can tell. Or the SIP identity mechanism, although that seems to just start getting traction. The PSAP wouldn't care whether and how the VSP verified the customer identity; it just gets a single client cert from the VSP in a TLS connection. You probably missed the discussion on this years ago, but your concern and the perceived difficulties of a global PKI motivated the current mechanism, as it only requires what customers must have already, namely a shared secret with their VSP, and web-style cross- provider trust with a single cert for each provider. > providing accreditation to potentially thousands of access network > providers. But perhaps I am missing the point. That said, if you > couple > this with signed location then you have the whole gamut. See location > dependability draft > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-geopriv-location- > dependability- > 00 > >> >> PS: I also believe that the PSAP operator would accept calls that > don't >> have any location attached to it. How many calls today have location >> information available? Do we have some statistics about it? >> > > [AJW] All emergency calls in the world have some degree of location > provided (inferred), though in some cases this may not be > fantastically > accurate, country level. In the United States for wireline it is based > on the calling line ID, and either an ESRD (roughly representing a > cell) > or an ESRK (representing a rough calling area) for wireless. > > Perhaps, like some other working groups we need to make the > distinction > between support and implement. I am asking that the requirements > include > support for it, I think that implementation will be something that > jurisdictions have the option to do or not. This doesn't quite work, given that phones need to work universally. I don't want to buy a phone in Prague, say, that suddenly can't make an emergency call in New York city. Henning ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any unauthorized use of this email is prohibited. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [mf2] _______________________________________________ Geopriv mailing list Geopriv@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Winterbottom, James
- [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Winterbottom, James
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Marc Linsner
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Marc Linsner
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Ted Hardie
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Andrew Newton
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Brian Rosen
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Andrew Newton
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Richard Barnes
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Marc Linsner
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Hannes Tschofenig
- [Geopriv] Strawman Proposal Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Stark, Barbara
- [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Winterbottom, James
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Henning Schulzrinne
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Marc Linsner
- Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [Geopriv] Strawman Proposal James M. Polk
- Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Richard Barnes
- [Geopriv] Re: Strawman Proposal Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Winterbottom, James
- RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Winterbottom, James
- [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Winterbottom, James
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] Strawman Proposal Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Marc Linsner
- RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Marc Linsner
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Marc Linsner
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Marc Linsner
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Winterbottom, James
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Ted Hardie
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Dawson, Martin
- Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Ecrit] Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Hannes Tschofenig
- [Geopriv] Re: Strawman Proposal Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Andrew Newton
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Dawson, Martin
- Re: [Ecrit] Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Henning Schulzrinne
- RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Marc Linsner
- RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Stark, Barbara
- Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Tom-PT Taylor
- Re: [Ecrit] Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Brian Rosen
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Brian Rosen
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Marc Linsner
- Re: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Henning Schulzrinne
- RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Stark, Barbara
- RE: [Geopriv] NENA Requirements Dawson, Martin
- RE: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Marc Linsner
- Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Haberler Michael
- RE: [Ecrit] Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Raymond Forbes (CV/ETL)
- RE: [Ecrit] Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal Raymond Forbes (CV/ETL)