Re: [Ianaplan] What's happening at ICANN?
Avri Doria <avri@acm.org> Wed, 14 October 2015 11:26 UTC
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References: <56181181.50002@gmail.com> <D23F19BE.27A31A%Jonne.soininen@nsn.com> <561D47DD.2010704@acm.org> <CAF4+nEHDxq1fgAqdb5Kwe6cNn9uK5jS2+wnNVXRFpLY44+Y=4g@mail.gmail.com>
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From: Avri Doria <avri@acm.org>
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Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 07:26:21 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Ianaplan] What's happening at ICANN?
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Hi, I have no strong convictions about whether the IETF is an UA or not. I did not think it was, but if you think it is, then it might just well be. So congratulations, IETF can both sue and be sued. All I was trying to say was IETF had a binding appeals tracks that ICANN does not have. avri On 13-Oct-15 14:30, Donald Eastlake wrote: > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Avri Doria <avri@acm.org> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> One essential difference is that IETF has an appeal mechanism on process >> to the Internet Society Board of Trustees. >> This is the backstop for the IETF. >> >> From what I have learned in the ICANN Accountability process, the most >> legal training I have ever had, the IETF as the IETF might have trouble >> suing anyone given that is is not a legal person. Fortunately the IETF >> does not live in an environment where suits, of either kind, are the norm. > Even though I'm right and what you and lots of other people believe is > wrong :-) I don't usually both to point that out. It is usually not > worth the effort to argue with people having very strong convictions. > But either the IETF is just part of the ISOC, which is a corporation > and can obviously sue or be sued, or the IETF is a separate > unincorporated non-profit association. > > In the United States, unincorporated non-profit associations have > legal existence and can sue and be sued. To take examples from > business and labor, for over 150 years the New York Stock Exchange was > an unincorporated association having numerous employees and contracts > as wel as the occasional lawsuit, until sometime in the 1950s when it > incorporated and it only did that then to get the advantage of some US > Federal tax provisions for pensions that were only available to > corporations. All or almost all labor unions in the US are > unincorporated associations (and laws attempting to force them to > incorporate have been declared to violate the US Constitution as a > violation of the right of freedom of association). I acted as the > agent for an unincorporated association which applied for and was > granted US trademarks (the certificate issued by the US Patent and > Trademark Office explicit recites that the organization is a "US > unincorporated association"). > > The often repeated claim the the IETF does not legally exist is and > always has been just plain wrong. > > Thanks, > Donald > ============================= > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA > d3e3e3@gmail.com > >> avri >> >> On 10-Oct-15 12:57, Soininen, Jonne (Nokia - FI/Espoo) wrote: >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> like Bernard and Dave said, part of the story is the press tries to spin >>> an interesting story. Partly the story is that there are strong emotions >>> in play at the ICANN in this topic. >>> >>> So, the topic is ICANN accountability. The claim is that as long as there >>> was the NTIA contract on IANA there has been a backstop on ICANN's >>> decisions, especially the board's. The theory is that if ICANN (the staff >>> and the board, not the community) would do something silly NTIA could at >>> least threaten to take IANA away and pressure ICANN to reconsider the >>> decision get to the right path. However, with the IANA stewardship >>> transition there would be no backstop anymore and potentially a future >>> board could go rogue and do whatever they want disregarding the community. >>> Therefore, there needs to be new accountability mechanisms. >>> >>> The main accountability mechanisms discussed have been spilling the >>> complete board, removing a board member and control/veto the ICANN budget >>> and bylaws changes. There is pretty much consensus that in some form or >>> another these are reasonable requirements. However, the discussion is >>> about what is the right enforceability mechanism. Enforcement means how >>> can you legally enforce ICANN/board do something - basically, how can you >>> sue ICANN if the board/staff doesn't do what the community expects it to >>> do. >>> >>> In the IETF, we have a bit different approach to these things. I wouldn't >>> think we would have ever the discussion the IETF community should be able >>> to take the IESG or IAB to court. Interesting thought, though... ;) >>> >>> I hope this helps. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Jonne. >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ianaplan mailing list >> Ianaplan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ianaplan > _______________________________________________ > Ianaplan mailing list > Ianaplan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ianaplan > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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