Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry
t.p. <daedulus@btconnect.com> Wed, 03 December 2014 10:37 UTC
Return-Path: <daedulus@btconnect.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 501BF1A1A37 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 02:37:56 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SByUhtXYbrsF for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 02:37:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from emea01-am1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am1on0721.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe00::721]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5F791A1A06 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 02:37:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pc6 (86.184.62.161) by DBXPR07MB254.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.11.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.26.15; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 10:30:56 +0000
Message-ID: <01f901d00ee4$3c077b40$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net>
From: "t.p." <daedulus@btconnect.com>
To: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>, Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
References: <54770BA5.5060603@cisco.com> <809EFD2B-A845-46B7-A394-A9C9E5393CD5@piuha.net> <547874D6.1090001@cisco.com> <7890AE32-F7A9-4C32-9C3D-8251E70B1F29@lucidvision.com> <m2sigyhpxc.wl%randy@psg.com> <8BBBDF7F-00A0-44BD-AA64-DA7044D35012@lucidvision.com> <C51AC247-C16D-4452-874E-0D97BDB009EB@juniper.net> <547D0AEA.4020309@gmail.com> <0BFD0B22-EC45-473F-8E7A-7FB608B60E6F@juniper.net> <139D837E-F131-4791-A026-234699A7E617@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:18:22 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Originating-IP: [86.184.62.161]
X-ClientProxiedBy: AM3PR01CA060.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.141.191.50) To DBXPR07MB254.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.11.12)
X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DBXPR07MB254;
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:;
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DBXPR07MB254;
X-Forefront-PRVS: 0414DF926F
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(199003)(377454003)(13464003)(24454002)(189002)(97736003)(81816999)(92566001)(81686999)(86362001)(102836001)(50986999)(76176999)(101416001)(104166001)(46102003)(4396001)(88136002)(92726001)(89996001)(31966008)(50226001)(61296003)(42186005)(87976001)(44736004)(19580405001)(50466002)(19580395003)(84392001)(1556002)(87286001)(21056001)(62236002)(44716002)(120916001)(107046002)(33646002)(77156002)(62966003)(64706001)(122386002)(106356001)(105586002)(99396003)(66066001)(93916002)(93886004)(40100003)(14496001)(116806002)(77096005)(47776003)(20776003)(95666004)(68736005)(1456002)(74416001)(7059030)(7726001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DBXPR07MB254; H:pc6; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:0; MX:1; LANG:en;
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DBXPR07MB254;
X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/6-8cv3h6tDtttCkxCWabo5-5Bcg
Cc: IETF-Discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:37:56 -0000
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Lemon" <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> To: "Dean Bogdanovic" <deanb@juniper.net> Cc: "IETF-Discussion list" <ietf@ietf.org> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 2:59 AM Subject: Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry On Dec 1, 2014, at 8:54 PM, Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net> wrote: > this is one part I don't understand. Why adding another language would make them less agile? If the yang model isn't a good representation of what is being modeled, it can cause more harm than good. Same problem exists with MIBs. <tp> The difference is that MIBs are written in a much simpler language; what object should there be, its syntax and status (index, read-only, read-write) and that's about it (even augmentation tends to confuse many people). I have never yet met a MIB module that I could not reverse engineer to determine the design, even the requirements. YANG is different, it is capable of much more complicated things and occasionally it is unclear what it does mean (something that surfaces on the netmod WG list now and again). What I think I see happening is what happened when programming languages became more widely used, an inability to keep things as simple as they could be, resulting in code whose purpose was unclear, that was error-prone and hard to understand or maintain. Not an issue with SMI. The YANG models of the IETF seem to be diving into complex code from which it is hard to discern what the purpose is, and the fact that most of the exemplars are written by those highly expert in YANG, and so use the wide range of constructs available, does not help. Perhaps the IESG should require that any IETF YANG data model must be accompanied by an information model so that we can debate what should be done independently of deciding how to do it. After all, this is a stricture that has been imposed on the I2RS WG. Tom Petch When different implementations of the same thing use different base assumptions, it can be difficult to come up with a management model that is congruent with all of the different base assumptions and is still useful. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it's a good bet that a poorly thought out model or a model that is based on experience with a single implementation will fail in this regard.
- Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Benoit Claise
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Jari Arkko
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Benoit Claise
- RE: [netmod] Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the I… Tina TSOU
- Re: [netmod] Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the I… Dean Bogdanovic
- Re: [netmod] Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the I… Benoit Claise
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: [netmod] Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the I… Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: [netmod] Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the I… Dean Bogdanovic
- Re: [netmod] Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the I… Benoit Claise
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Randy Bush
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Dean Bogdanovic
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Tim Wicinski
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Dean Bogdanovic
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Ted Lemon
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Dean Bogdanovic
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Ted Lemon
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Randy Bush
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Dean Bogdanovic
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry t.p.
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Alia Atlas
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Dean Bogdanovic
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Ted Lemon
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Benoit Claise
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Benoit Claise
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Benoit Claise
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Thomas D. Nadeau
- RE: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- RE: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry t.p.
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Ted Lemon
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Benoit Claise
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Tim Wicinski
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Randy Bush
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Ted Lemon
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry t.p.
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Blog: YANG Really Takes Off in the Industry t.p.