Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for the IETF"
"Roland Dobbins" <rdobbins@arbor.net> Mon, 01 June 2015 22:41 UTC
Return-Path: <rdobbins@arbor.net>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0271A0687 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 15:41:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9KL5SACsubhl for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 15:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C8421A064C for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 15:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by padjw17 with SMTP id jw17so46651887pad.2 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 15:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type; bh=uQrz0HFQUrXdYeFqT6d/+4KUVfbbqFTBJSId341GcMw=; b=fJcqEaKC4kI+OEsDnWDCJ9zpGVclUzSE5nK2LWcimjwA2cqCOOjQACW/emeoI3Vs7U +M8X/dJiZpu1krn8yTDK6WyRKxgORLa0w+9Dd75WGE09r3Da4FUu9hmaCnhe9dRoyIOz eqK+tLS3rZBD1tnfkky3j04SAj457vMCIIuEY=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-type; bh=uQrz0HFQUrXdYeFqT6d/+4KUVfbbqFTBJSId341GcMw=; b=UShPqeWibwv/7M2K45sXPQLWgjrMK2wY+iLZeIMvN/klvHFSykOzte0TmuU7lbeEkv q7eJjtsYPhe7sYt5jdGCbhwdaWpW7weQ998+3H+ncRUziB5oWDAmaCGJclK+gr11RV0W GgZ3RzIAhksK460Yppl6THTmN9b5Aoo8i+p8zLSSE3ogTNNqtKEhV2KGKqf2ZmCvtdwA 0sDExJO+QrxVLOoEnVsILM28iyYK/55v0cE+musVnrSyxDPPjthwX8TF5pPcT8P0mQgO jqPRroNQYzAFtnEN0YgmPvOKimlAnpLLVsc4nTw3rE/26deSaZdcsIIjyFiTH4SowHEO UCkw==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlvaUoDrdVZfB2CnmxS6IEUpeSJo18s7ROX62vBmTIJcgtS66FNYoJAylQ9f2H6Ix1W6Eut
X-Received: by 10.68.136.161 with SMTP id qb1mr6900886pbb.112.1433198483004; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 15:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [172.19.254.136] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id pw9sm15651942pac.27.2015.06.01.15.41.20 for <ietf@ietf.org> (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Jun 2015 15:41:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Roland Dobbins <rdobbins@arbor.net>
To: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for the IETF"
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 05:41:17 +0700
Message-ID: <FACB397F-15AA-4FE1-ABF2-1545ABBACF31@arbor.net>
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1506011720390.12155@bofh.nohats.ca>
References: <20150601164359.29999.35343.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CAL02cgRPFooA5fVFwvdprb3wPD+Y55pD+7RWjkACDv7T_TBW5Q@mail.gmail.com> <1472054.O9DP0qoCQf@gongo> <alpine.LFD.2.11.1506011720390.12155@bofh.nohats.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format="flowed"
X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.1r5084)
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/RUDn6tGXNwMGuMBsWOo2bvZZV_0>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 22:41:24 -0000
On 2 Jun 2015, at 4:27, Paul Wouters wrote: > We had to cater to governments banning encryption for its users, and > we now see what that got them. They just go around the encryption and compromise the endpoints. They're *governments*, so they have the resources to do that (not debating whether or not they should, just stating observed fact). Also, universal or near-universal encryption is a serious problem in terms of detection, classification, traceback, and mitigation of application-layer DDoS attacks. It drastically limits the scaling capacity of defenders, and results in even more cost asymmetry between defenders and attackers (in favor of the attackers). My guess is that those who make bold, sweeping statements about how everything ought to be encrypted all the time are rarely those who have to deal with the unintended consequences of overencryption. In the final analysis, there are no technical solutions for social ills. The entire issue of unwanted surveillance by government entities is a social and political problem; it seems pretty clear that since the social/political side of things aren't proving to be easily resolved, that some folks are advocating doing *something*, *anything*, irrespective of whether it will actually make a positive impact on the conditions to which they object and without regard to the non-trivial side-effects of what they're advocating. The IESG and the IETF in general should concentrate on technical issues, and work on solving social and political problems should take place in other, more appropriate appropriate fora, IMHO. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins <rdobbins@arbor.net>
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Richard Barnes
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Bob Hinden
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Nico Williams
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach (Syndicat.com)
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach (Syndicat.com)
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Paul Wouters
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roland Dobbins
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roland Dobbins
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roland Dobbins
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Nico Williams
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Mark Baugher (mbaugher)
- Where are the places that block encrypted traffic? Sam Hartman
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… S Moonesamy
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… John Levine
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Eliot Lear
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Eliot Lear
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roland Dobbins
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach (Syndicat.com)
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Niels Dettenbach
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… l.wood
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Richard Barnes
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Richard Barnes
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Richard Barnes
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Mark Andrews
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Sam Hartman
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… t.p.
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… t.p.
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Tim Bray
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Warren Kumari
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Tony Hain
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… John C Klensin
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Tony Hain
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… John C Klensin
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Tony Hain
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Yoav Nir
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Tony Hain
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Nico Williams
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Hildebrand
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Christian Huitema
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Tony Hain
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Nico Williams
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… l.wood
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Hector Santos
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Hector Santos
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Hector Santos
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell