Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for the IETF"
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Wed, 03 June 2015 22:49 UTC
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2015 18:49:31 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for the IETF"
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Hmm. Let me try to make my main point in another way, and then I'll follow my own advice and drop back out of this conversation... --On Wednesday, June 03, 2015 22:08 +0100 Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: > On 03/06/15 21:42, John C Klensin wrote: >> So how modest and minor do you really think it is? > > It's minor in terms of impact on users and current web content. > But less so perhaps as setting the default we want to use for > other cases in future as those arise. And it impacts on tooling > as well (e.g. the URLs in the boilerplate produced by xml2rfc, > and in the tracker) and it impacts on the secretariat in minor > ways (URLs embedded in mails they send out). > > The above and the fact that we do have a set of IETF folks > who seemingly don't like any of this are I think reason enough > for the iesg to solicit comment before just adopting something > like this, or just putting it in place without that. > > Personally, I do wish we didn't have to have essentially > the same points discussed over and over, but it seems we > do. Let me suggest a bit of cost-analysis arithmetic. IESG and other community members regularly complain that there are too few thoughtful and competent reviews of standards track specs on Last Call. This topic has generated a lot of messages, plus even more messages associated with the (probably inevitable) spinoffs and side-threads. It is possible that many of the people commenting just like process arguments and wouldn't be doing useful work anyway but, from looking at the names, I don't think that is generally true. To pick a completely arbitrary number, assume that, had this thread not started, 10% of the comments (or even 10% of the respondent count) might instead have gone into reviews of standards-track technical specs. Would you think the discussion worth it? Would your answer change is the question hypothesized 20%? 5%? The question is rhetorical, but the issue of allocation of resources is not. Unlike the references to existing materials that have been the focus of most of the comments, some of the examples you give really could have consequences for accessibility of materials in the future. The point is that change --both discussing the changes and making them-- has costs. Even if I saw much more positive value in this proposed action than I happen to do (I do see some, and am not opposed, but...), I don't think you have made a persuasive case that the costs of discussing and making the change are worth it in terms of opportunity costs within the community and its workload. I sometimes wish the community were willing to give the IESG a lot more flexibility to just make decisions, that the IESG were willing to take the responsibility that goes with that rather than feeling a need to ask questions (but know that they would be held accountable for getting things wrong), and that there were convenient and efficient ways for the community to express the equivalent of a "no confidence" vote in the IESG (not individuals) if things got sufficiently out of synch. best, john
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Richard Barnes
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Bob Hinden
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Nico Williams
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach (Syndicat.com)
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach (Syndicat.com)
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Paul Wouters
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roland Dobbins
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roland Dobbins
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roland Dobbins
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Nico Williams
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Mark Baugher (mbaugher)
- Where are the places that block encrypted traffic? Sam Hartman
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… S Moonesamy
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… John Levine
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Eliot Lear
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Eliot Lear
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roland Dobbins
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach (Syndicat.com)
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Niels Dettenbach
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… l.wood
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Richard Barnes
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Richard Barnes
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Richard Barnes
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Mark Andrews
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Sam Hartman
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… t.p.
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… t.p.
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Tim Bray
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Where are the places that block encrypted tra… Warren Kumari
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Tony Hain
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… John C Klensin
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Tony Hain
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… John C Klensin
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Tony Hain
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Yoav Nir
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Tony Hain
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Nico Williams
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Hildebrand
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Christian Huitema
- RE: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Tony Hain
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Joe Touch
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Nico Williams
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Niels Dettenbach
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… l.wood
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Hector Santos
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Hector Santos
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Hector Santos
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Proposed Statement on "HTTPS everywhere for t… Stephen Farrell