Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) DNS Resource Record) to Proposed Standard
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Fri, 06 March 2015 15:22 UTC
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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 10:22:25 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, Pete Resnick <presnick@qti.qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) DNS Resource Record) to Proposed Standard
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References: <54C9DA42.5040901@cisco.com> <9EB44D8A-278B-42FC-A542-1C182AD43128@netnod.se> <A74A30F4D1214630918FD4CA@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <20150223153757.GI1260@mournblade.imrryr.org> <20150223155241.GJ1260@mournblade.imrryr.org> <tsl8ufoh9ko.fsf@mit.edu> <2DF7230C-D1D8-4B21-9003-B336108A38CB@vpnc.org> <20150224172649.GX1260@mournblade.imrryr.org> <tslvbircj0d.fsf@mit.edu> <0325DF3F-17F3-4400-BDEA-EDB5334BF35C@frobbit.se> <20150225180227.GT1260@mournblade.imrryr.org> <7AB921D35A7F9B23A53BD11A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <tslvbip8io6.fsf@mit.edu> <54F09A35.9060506@qti.qualcomm.com> <54F78650.6070503@qti.qualcomm.com> <54F994BD.8090306@cisco.com>
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Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>, ietf@ietf.org, Fältström Patrik <paf@frobbit.se>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
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--On Friday, March 06, 2015 12:51 +0100 Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote: > I just wanted to say that I think it's a bad idea to make this > thing informational. The fact is that URI has been kicking > around for years upon years, and what we are doing now is > documenting existing practice. PS is a perfectly fine > instrument to gain experience, warts and all, with URI. Eliot, The counterargument is that we've gotten into a trap. In theory, PS implies something that we can use, as you say, to gain experience, etc. But that experience is useless unless the IETF has practical change control and can make alterations dictated by community review (before PS approval or after that experience accumulates). Because this RRTYPE is already registered and the registration cannot be changed in an incompatible way, that condition doesn't apply -- any experience we gain could only be used to inform an Applicability Statement that might say "don't use this" or "use this only if if series of other conditions have been met". Such an Applicability Statement (or nearly-equivalent BCP) could perfectly well be issued against an Informational document. The various Last Call design reviews have identified several changes that people would like to make to the RRTYPE itself (I am not claiming consensus for any of them because they haven't been discussed sufficiently). However, this cannot be a normal Last Call for a normal would-be PS spec, because those changes [1] cannot be considered and, if appropriate, made. I think this "register by Expert Review, freeze technical content, and then discuss standardization" path is a problem, potentially a serious one, for the IETF. But I think the place to sort it out is in our norms for Expert Review leading to registrations, e.g., in draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis or in changes to the (IIR, unwritten) "IETF has change control" and the very explicit "known defects" rule in 2026. Until and unless such changes occur, I just don't see a way to put this on the standards track that does not result in worse problems. best, john [1] While most of the focus of the discussions has been on security, there are some other substantive issues too. For example, (i) given that this RRTYPE moves the service being requested from the RDATA to the Owner of the DNS entry, is "Weight" still justified and is it likely to cause more trouble than it is worth or (ii) given recent controversies about kinds and uses of URIs, including the debate about how much different URNs should be from URLs and generic (but presumably location-oriented) URIs, should there be restrictions on the type and/or content of URIs that are considered appropriate for use with the RRTYPE? The issue isn't what the answer to those question should it; it is that they can't really be asked.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Mark Nottingham
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Patrik Fältström
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Mark Nottingham
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Patrik Fältström
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Patrik Fältström
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Eliot Lear
- (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-u… John C Klensin
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… John C Klensin
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Dirk-Willem van Gulik
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Sam Hartman
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Paul Hoffman
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Mark Andrews
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Sam Hartman
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Pete Resnick
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… John C Klensin
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… John C Klensin
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Sam Hartman
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Andrew Newton
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Nico Williams
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Nico Williams
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Mark Nottingham
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Eliot Lear
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Andrew Newton
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Andrew Newton
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Eliot Lear
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Sam Hartman
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Sam Hartman
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Pete Resnick
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Nico Williams
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Nico Williams
- draft-newton-link-rr (was Re: Last Call: <draft-f… Nico Williams
- Re: draft-newton-link-rr (was Re: Last Call: <dra… Nico Williams
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Mark Andrews
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Mark Andrews
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Patrik Fältström
- Re: draft-newton-link-rr (was Re: Last Call: <dra… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: draft-newton-link-rr (was Re: Last Call: <dra… Andrew Newton
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… John C Klensin
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: draft-newton-link-rr (was Re: Last Call: <dra… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-uri-10.txt> (The … Mark Andrews
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Mark Nottingham
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Mark Nottingham
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Pete Resnick
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Pete Resnick
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Sam Hartman
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Eliot Lear
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Pete Resnick
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Sam Hartman
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Sam Hartman
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… John C Klensin
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… John C Klensin
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… John C Klensin
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… John C Klensin
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… John C Klensin
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… John C Klensin
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Eliot Lear
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Eliot Lear
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Nico Williams
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Pete Resnick
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Pete Resnick
- Where to do the work was Re: (short version) Re: … t.p.
- Re: (short version) Re: Last Call: <draft-faltstr… Patrik Fältström