Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Problem Statement]
"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Tue, 01 May 2018 17:22 UTC
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To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Tom Herbert <tom@quantonium.net>, ila@ietf.org, 5GANGIP <5gangip@ietf.org>
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Problem Statement]
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I am not sure I follow. If I am reading you right, you suggest that dropping cache usage during a DOS attack is a useful feature. If the system is engineered to operate well using local caches in the ILA, then dropping cache usage would seem to result in a DOS attack on the ILA-R infrastructure as it will have to handle a sustained packet load much higher than its design target. Yours, Joel On 5/1/18 1:16 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote: >> If you do not use caches in your ILA-Ns (and yes, I understand your >> reasoning for not doing so), then you are constructing an overlay network. >> One of the arguments I was given for using ILA was to enable direct >> forwarding of packets effectively without needing to have routing track the >> moving entities. Without caches, you are pushing all the traffic through >> fewer entities. And you seem to be either using a lot of ILA-R with >> concomitant information distribution or few ILA-R restricting the >> information distribution problem but instead having traffic concentration >> problems. >> >> I understood from your earlier presentation that the ILA-r using the packet >> as a signal was to avoid dropping the first packet, and as a side-effect not >> needing a separate query message. >> Now you seem to be saying that your think it important to support not having >> caches in the ILA-Ns, which is a VERY different trade-off. >> > Joel, > > I think you've misunderstood my position. Caches are _very_ important > to eliminate the cost triangular routing (latency, average path load). > This reduces latency and reduces average load on ILA-Rs. But, and this > is the critical part, caches are only an _optimization_ in ILA. That > means if the cache is rendered ineffective (like by a well crafted DOS > attack) then the only effect is that the optimization is loss (i.e. > greater latency due to triangular router)-- this is quantitively the > worst effect of the attack on an ILA cache. This can be contrasted > that to LISP where the worst case effects of a DOS attack on the cache > is loss of service for users (infinite latency since packets can be > dropped or indefinitely blocked on a cache miss). > > Tom > >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> >> On 5/1/18 12:37 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 9:10 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Three reactions, all personal opinion (in case someone thinks my having >>>> helped chair the BoF is in any way relevant; it isn't): >>>> >>>> 1) If ILA-Ns do not have caches, the ILA-Rs will become hot-spots in the >>>> network. Yes, you have provision for multiple of them sharing load. >>>> However, if that sharing gets to be a significant percentage of teh >>>> routers >>>> in the network, then there is no point in having bothered with ILA, you >>>> are >>>> just routing on the SIR. >>>> >>> Joel, >>> >>> If you provision a network (or any system really) based on an >>> assumption that caches will always attain some hit rate this is a >>> fundamental mistake. One of the goals of a DOS attack would be to >>> drive the hit rate to zero in which case someone will be in a world of >>> hurt. Caches and DOS are a hard mix to contend with in nearly any >>> context, that's why it's much better to view caches as an optimization >>> rather than a requirement. They can be used to alleviate load, but >>> that cannot be relied upon. >>> >>> I would also point out that caches only make sense as internal devices >>> for intra domain communications. This does not make sense for edge >>> routers that would need to create a working set cache for any >>> aribtrary load of traffic from the Internet. >>> >>>> 2) As far as I can tell, when some ILA-N have caches, the ILA-R have no >>>> way >>>> of knowing whether the ILA-N have caches or not. I can understand what >>>> happens if all ILA-N in a network have the same cache state (either they >>>> all >>>> have caches or they all do not have caches). But I do not know what >>>> behavior you expect of an ILA-R if the ILA-N are not uniform. Given the >>>> hot-spot issue above, I think you need to really explain why ILA-N would >>>> not >>>> ahve caches. >>>> >>> ILA-Rs and ILA-Ns communicate via ILAMP protocol. That can include >>> capabilities description. >>> >>>> 3 - Minor) Your usage of "sharding" seems odd. You are simply dividing >>>> the >>>> domain into address blocks, and distributing responsibility for those >>>> blocks >>>> separately. In other contexts, sharding seems to be used more generally >>>> for >>>> having subcollections of the data which can be moved around. >>>> >>> Sharding is a database term that describes partitioning of the >>> database into smaller chunks for manageablibilty. That is what is >>> happening here (literally in the implementation since we are use a >>> database backend). >>> >>> Tom >>> >>
- [Ila] ILA forwaring [Was Re: [5gangip] Problem St… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] ILA forwaring [Was Re: [5gangip] Proble… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] ILA forwaring [Was Re: [5gangip] Proble… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Alberto Rodriguez-Natal
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Alberto Rodriguez-Natal
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Dirk.von-Hugo
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [Ila] [5gangip] ILA forwaring [Was Re: Proble… Tom Herbert