Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF
Kerry Lynn <kerlyn@ieee.org> Fri, 07 June 2013 16:17 UTC
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Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 12:17:46 -0400
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From: Kerry Lynn <kerlyn@ieee.org>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Albrecht, Harald" <harald.albrecht@siemens.com>
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Subject: Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF
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On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>wrote: > > >>>>> "Albrecht," == Albrecht, Harald <harald.albrecht@siemens.com> > writes: > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > >> Von: mdnsext-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mdnsext-bounces@ietf.org] Im > >> Auftrag von Michael Richardson > >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 4. Juni 2013 15:46 > >> An: mdnsext@ietf.org > >> Betreff: Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF > > >> I think that they are very different, and I think that we need to > leave the > >> door open to that commercial enterprise networks might be ruled out > of > >> bounds for mDNS. That is, it might be that all that we wind up > with is a way > >> to signal that mDNS is *not* to be used on a particular > >> network. I do not believe that we have many operators of such > networks > >> at IETF meetings to represent their point of view. (I think about > the > >> operators of the government networks near me... they have many > >> conflicting requirements, but few clues as to how to put them > together) > > Albrecht> My understanding of the ongoing discussion so far is, that > Albrecht> the charter is not focusing solely on mDNS as the > Albrecht> underlying technology only, but with a somewhat broader > Albrecht> scope of service discovery; thus, also including DNS for > Albrecht> those scenarios (use cases) where an IT infrastructure is > Albrecht> present. At least to some extent. My impression was that > Albrecht> the (pending?) renaming of the upcoming WG reflects this > Albrecht> situation. Or did I misunderstand this? > > Your understanding is correct. > Yes, it's true that going to infrastructure DNS is useful. > > But, that doesn't prevent or clearly signal, that mDNS may be > *unwelcome* on a particular network. Enterprise folks might want to do > that. I'm not claiming that they will, or should, succeed, btw. I'm > pointing out that we don't know what they want, because they don't tend > to participate. > > One critical idea that I want to interject is that the list of use cases presented in the requirements draft (which Michael transcribed in an earlier message on this thread) was a *delta* beyond what is currently provided by mDNS. The next version will point out that the base case for mDNS is still valid. (I refer to the limiting case as the "one laptop, on printer" scenario. Substitute "one bulb, one switch" or whatever you like.) The point is that mDNS functionality as described in RFCs 6763/6762 isn't going away anytime soon (if ever) and is therefore available to be leveraged by sdnssd work. We will certainly try to limit the multicast traffic in some of the more advanced use cases - e.g. perhaps to locate a DNS-SD server. On naming the WG, I think "sdnssd" contains the critical ideas of the proposed charter, that we're focused on a) using DNS for service discovery - not uPNP, HTTP, or other method, and b) that we're interested in a relatively scalable user experience from the one laptop, one printer scenario through fully managed DNS. With respect to adding "autonomous" to the mix, to me that implies "without user intervention". I think this might be possible for some use cases, e.g. multi-link residential deployments with no externally visible services. But as we get into the more advanced use cases (e.g. university networks) these will require policy or security administration. We can certainly strive to limit the amount of admin necessary, but I think having "autonomous" in the WG name is potentially as confusing as having "multicast" there. >> It's not that mDNS and global > >> DNS *services* or even protocols have difficulties co-existing. > They do > >> that just fine. It is a question of them *interacting*. The place > >> where they interact is on the *host*. > > Albrecht> How true, that's where the devil is in the details. mDNS > Albrecht> uses UTF-8 encoding on the wire and DNS uses (at least for > Albrecht> host domain names) ASCII/IDNA-2008. Throw in different > Albrecht> resolver libs and IDNA support and you are ready for an > Albrecht> instant recipe disaster. > > I will still like someone to generate a very simple example that illustrates the difficulty so I can include it in the requirements draft. It is my understanding that the <Instance> part of a DNS-SD name (i.e. the name of the SRV and TXT records) can be arbitrary Net-Unicode text [RFC5198] excluding the control chars 0x00-0x1F and 0x7F. It is silent, so far as I can tell, on host names. It may be that OS X allows UTF-8 host names, which subsequently occur in mDNS packets... -K- It might be that some vendor find they have to greenfield things. > My preference would be to stub out the libc stub resolver, and force all > resolution to 127.0.0.1 (::1), and do all the rest. That's already the > case for some systems, but it has failed to become an architectural norm. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network > architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails > [ > > > _______________________________________________ > mdnsext mailing list > mdnsext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mdnsext > >
- [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Ralph Droms
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Ralph Droms
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF peter van der Stok
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Daniel Park
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Ralph Droms
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Brzozowski, John
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Brzozowski, John
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Scott Herscher
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF peter van der Stok
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Albrecht, Harald
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Mark Townsley
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Kerry Lynn
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Michael Sweet
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF peter van der Stok
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Brzozowski, John
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Brzozowski, John
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Albrecht, Harald
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Kerry Lynn
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF David Farmer
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Kerry Lynn
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF David Farmer
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Kerry Lynn
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Albrecht, Harald
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Michael Sweet
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Albrecht, Harald
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF David Farmer
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Michael Sweet
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Kerry Lynn
- Re: [mdnsext] Discussion of BoF during Berlin IETF Michael Richardson