Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on the future
Dan Olivares <dcolivares@gmail.com> Mon, 23 February 2009 21:35 UTC
Return-Path: <dcolivares@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: mmox@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: mmox@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C1128C0FB for <mmox@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:35:22 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.5
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.099, BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRZvGPWRhcHv for <mmox@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:35:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-fx0-f167.google.com (mail-fx0-f167.google.com [209.85.220.167]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144DC3A67E6 for <mmox@ietf.org>; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:35:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: by fxm11 with SMTP id 11so2243756fxm.13 for <mmox@ietf.org>; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:35:37 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5p8PwFq2YwUe4N2pjJ9+nYE9bq+gspOUIheVActreO0=; b=n1pKOHiS+pKcTvWKynBrNmJNXvwCmaA/CHgqghPmXqsN5b81fxvqYbfO7QxSG9gg2H 61V1DV/x6mG/UmT6UQHRheYiS4cLcIib2ppZuYlneDUL7DygLHnAP4pkDQUiovT/GC0O bH8aweHtKN2c8W/3IODnCKtWkpXK03AzXdYUk=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=V8jEDPR/oDb6/9YPCFWxBpqBAtnePBQiWgNwohaNj81L0WaDky7gL/+aG7aYw/mf+J Konf3G7xmhafhB4cdtJNr6y7/ycdqwepmxxejIWeWgp+LNx7jqKoeeZFRwf8vSVGLhpR mjK4RNpnsRMwTEgFwtxSwq73DI6nx0f9Bktu4=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.103.160.9 with SMTP id m9mr1773406muo.53.1235424936759; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:35:36 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <9A27EF31A4DF2C4C8BB45D661B13BA870535083A@MERCURY.forterrainc.com>
References: <FDF00DC7F277439581F4909E2C549AA6@KEVINPC> <49A2500F.3000104@gmail.com> <e0b04bba0902230031s5065080j61058011201cd929@mail.gmail.com> <49A311BC.90405@gmail.com> <9A27EF31A4DF2C4C8BB45D661B13BA870535083A@MERCURY.forterrainc.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:35:36 -0500
Message-ID: <a768bcd90902231335q489646b3jbf5218bf2f59ca75@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dan Olivares <dcolivares@gmail.com>
To: Robert Gehorsam <RGehorsam@forterrainc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mmox@ietf.org, Mystical Demina <MysticalDemina@xrgrid.com>, Jon Watte <jwatte@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on the future
X-BeenThere: mmox@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Massively Multi-participant Online Games and Applications <mmox.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox>, <mailto:mmox-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmox>
List-Post: <mailto:mmox@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:mmox-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox>, <mailto:mmox-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:35:22 -0000
I completely agree with you here. Therefore, if this working group is important to you (or anyone else here), I urge you to solicit parties that you feel could make a significant contribution to a MMO/VW standard. Best Regards Daniel Olivares On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Robert Gehorsam <RGehorsam@forterrainc.com> wrote: > I think part of the issue here with regard to the debate between broad > and narrow interoperability is that, other than Jon representing > Forterra's technical efforts, there are no other visibly participating > technical representatives from any other virtual world technology > providers or other relevant groups. No one from Sun, Qwaq, Multiverse, > HiPiHi, Activeworlds, any of the browser-based folks, Twinity, any of > the game folks or kids worlds, Makena (the company that, contrary to > some folks' assertions, is the company that makes and operates > There.com), Proton Media, Icarus or its various partners, ECS, and so > forth. I've seen references to Qwaq but haven't seen Greg or anyone > else from there participating here. There are probably two dozen > companies that would be reasonable candidates for this discussion, not > to mention companies like Adobe, Google, Intel, Samsung, Sony and, yes, > even Microsoft, all of which might arguably have some interesting > contributions to make. > > It may be that this lack of broad participation is creating -- fairly or > unfairly -- the sense that the conversation will naturally drift towards > an SL-OS orientation -- despite what I see as the best intentions of > many people here -- simply because, other than Forterra, no one else is > stepping up to the plate. I can tell you that *that* is not something > that Forterra wants to see, because it's inherent in our view of the > evolution of the internet that interoperability between diverse virtual > worlds is essential for all to succeed. So the imbalance in this > ongoing discussion creates a false dynamic of conflict when none is > intended. Without broad input, how can we achieve broad > interoperability? > > Is there any outreach going on to these various organizations, or is > that somehow not part of the policy? Not being really familiar with the > workings of these sorts of technical groups, I just don't know. > > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: mmox-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mmox-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Jon Watte > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:15 PM > To: Morgaine > Cc: Mystical Demina; mmox@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on the future > > Morgaine wrote: >> I can't understand why you continue to raise the spectre that we're >> here to rubberstamp SL standards. We aren't. I'm not aware of >> anybody with that agenda. >> > > Because there are several people on this list who say "OpenSim and > Second Life are already trying to do client interoperability; I think we > should run with it and not worry about something bigger." > Similarly, I find that the current OGP proposal specifies some thing > ("Rezzing" of avatars) that are Second Life centric, while not > specifying other things that would be necessary for an actually useful > interoperable virtual world (like entity telemetry). > > Similarly, if OGP is specified as a mostly empty vessel that can contain > arbitrary negotiated data, what would probably happen would be that > OpenSim puts OpenSim data in that vessel, and IMVU puts IMVU data in > that vessel, and both claim to support "OGP interoperability" but you > can't do anything useful through that claim. I want to avoid that > outcome. >> >> We are working in good faith towards your item 2), while noting that >> item 2) means interop with "all" reasonable worlds, and that includes >> Linden worlds. It's not either/or, it's both. Please grant us that, >> so that we can actually make headway. >> >> /(Proviso: your item 2) says /*single ... simulation*/, which is >> incorrect, as we have no remit to straightjacket diverse worlds into a > >> single simulation.)/ > > What I mean by "single simulation" is what the user sees when connected > to a specific, interoperating instance. I suppose the user could be > connected to multiple of those, similar to opening multiple video > streams in a media player, but then those generally have "nothing" to do > with each other. > > > Okay, so if most of us agree on 2), can we just say we have "rough > consensus" on that, and politely reject any attempt to steer the work > towards 1)? > > > Sincerely, > > jw > > > _______________________________________________ > mmox mailing list > mmox@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox > _______________________________________________ > mmox mailing list > mmox@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox >
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Mystical Demina
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Jon Watte
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Gareth Nelson
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Morgaine
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Jon Watte
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Robert Gehorsam
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Dan Olivares
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Robert Gehorsam
- [mmox] Industry involvement (was RE: Learning fro… Hurliman, John
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity)
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Gareth Nelson
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Gareth Nelson
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Robert Gehorsam
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Gareth Nelson
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Jon Watte
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Gareth Nelson