Re: [NGO] external module properties
Andy Bierman <ietf@andybierman.com> Mon, 28 April 2008 14:02 UTC
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:02:03 -0700
From: Andy Bierman <ietf@andybierman.com>
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To: Andy Bierman <ietf@andybierman.com>, Jon Saperia <saperia@jdscons.com>, NETCONF Goes On <ngo@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [NGO] external module properties
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 08:49:53AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > >> My point is that we need to thinking more holistically about the >> entire management system, which includes problems such as human factors >> and module life-cycle. > > A data modeling language specification is the wrong place to address > human factors. Really? I thought YANG existed to provide the human-friendly data modeling interface that XSD and DSDL cannot provide. It seems to me human factors are critical to CM. Configuration errors are a big problem in real networks. Providing an API and operational environment which is resistant to human-introduced errors is a very high priority to me. > >> We tried the 'blinders-on' approach with SMING/EOS and that didn't >> work out so well. Focusing on the DML and ignoring the protocol (or >> vice versa) leads to incomplete or broken solutions. > > YANG is NETCONF very specific; it is by its very design a domain > specific language for NETCONF data models and not comparable to > SMING/EOS. I think there are plenty of similarities and lessons to be learned from SMING and EOS. I believe you wrote an RFC on the subject. ;-) The YANG and 'Why YANG?' drafts cite the SMIng language as the starting point for YANG. > >> Of course the namespace URI is mandatory, because it is needed >> to properly implement the NETCONF protocol. The 'YANG philosphy' >> (whatever that is) has nothing to do with it. Likewise, the >> revision date is needed to properly implement NETCONF applications. > > There is a fine distinction here between a language definition their > implementations and the usage of a language in a larger context. For > me, a missing revision statement is something I like to generate a > warning for but it is not an error since NETCONF continues to function > without the revision information. > > Note that I am not concerned about this particular case so much; I am > concerned the logic behind. The SMI has been full of CLRs in order to > make this a better world and with YANG we tried to get over this and > we tried to reduce CLRs to a minimum, leaving the specification of > CLRs to CLR documents (called coding styles in the software world and > guidelines in this space). > I disagree. This is a known problem in XML and CM, which needs to be addressed. Should we standardize on the namespace URI as the version ID? I hope not. IMO, we need a standard version field that can be retrieved with the the schema-discovery DM, and is deterministically derived from the YANG module (or explicitly entered, like LAST-UPDATED). IMO, it is a bad idea to mix modules with and without versions. The namespace-stmt is mandatory because YANG is forcing good XML usage. Forcing the use of a version ID for good XML usage is no different. >> YANG is not decoupled from NETCONF, and NETCONF is not decoupled >> from the actual CM problem space. One needs to consider that sometimes >> CLRs are really CBRs, and important for real interoperability. > > Which one of <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBR> do you mean? I guess > you mean the "Comic_Book_Resources". ;-) > Not Constant Bit Rate either. Crappy Big Rule. > /js > Andy _______________________________________________ NGO mailing list NGO@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo
- [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Jon Saperia
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Wes Hardaker
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [NGO] external module properties David Harrington
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Randy Presuhn
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Wes Hardaker
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties David Harrington
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties David Harrington
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties David Harrington
- Re: [NGO] external module properties David Harrington
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Wes Hardaker
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Wes Hardaker
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Wes Hardaker
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Wes Hardaker
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties David Harrington
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [NGO] external module properties David Harrington
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Wes Hardaker
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Wes Hardaker
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Randy Presuhn
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Randy Presuhn
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties David Harrington
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Wes Hardaker
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Wes Hardaker
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Randy Presuhn
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Randy Presuhn
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Randy Presuhn
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Andy Bierman
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Phil Shafer
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [NGO] external module properties Martin Bjorklund