Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] NTPv5 Loop Detection without Stratum

Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org> Tue, 06 September 2022 05:11 UTC

Return-Path: <stenn@nwtime.org>
X-Original-To: ntp@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ntp@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C2CC14F607 for <ntp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:11:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -6.909
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oGvPirY-Bz6X for <ntp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:11:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from chessie.everett.org (chessie.everett.org [66.220.13.234]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA198C14EB1E for <ntp@ietf.org>; Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:11:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [10.208.75.149] (071-084-168-128.res.spectrum.com [71.84.168.128]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4MMD4S0VCgzMQ15; Tue, 6 Sep 2022 05:11:04 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <a0ec18e8-3679-49f8-ed7e-a818ebb1de26@nwtime.org>
Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 22:11:02 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.13.0
Content-Language: en-US
From: Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org>
To: "ntp@ietf.org" <ntp@ietf.org>
References: <20220905215236.ED4D728C1D8@107-137-68-211.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net> <0c5ac027-1be2-8f1f-ca52-badb7eb40eea@pdmconsulting.net> <d3f0c3f4-df95-77ca-07ae-6d5e857a81d7@nwtime.org>
In-Reply-To: <d3f0c3f4-df95-77ca-07ae-6d5e857a81d7@nwtime.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ntp/IWQ28B7e5FsQMetFTViLLZHhGIo>
Subject: Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] NTPv5 Loop Detection without Stratum
X-BeenThere: ntp@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: Network Time Protocol <ntp.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ntp>, <mailto:ntp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ntp/>
List-Post: <mailto:ntp@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ntp-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ntp>, <mailto:ntp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2022 05:11:15 -0000

Please indulge me.

There seems to be significant concern about some number of servers 
getting in to a loop.

Why?

What are the conditions under which this would happen?

What are the various end results of the condition(s) in which this happens?

Is there (something like) a "root distance" involved?

If so, at what point does a sufficiently large root distance affect each 
member of the loop?

Has any consideration been given to NTPv4's orphan mode, or even 
fallback to the local clock at a suitable stratum?

How many more time sources would be needed to prevent a loop?  How does 
the availability of 1 more time source affect this?  2 more?  3?

-- 
Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org>
http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member!