Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working group? Was: Re: ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts
"Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu> Sun, 10 March 2019 23:38 UTC
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From: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu>
To: "StJohns, Michael" <msj@nthpermutation.com>
CC: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, CFRG <cfrg@irtf.org>, "RFC ISE (Adrian Farrel)" <rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org>, secdir <secdir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working group? Was: Re: [secdir] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts
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Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 23:38:29 +0000
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working group? Was: Re: ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts
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I do not think CFRG should move to become a part of the IETF. While (some of) the CFRG-produced documents may be de-facto standards, they aren't of the kind that IETF is expected to define, and deal with somewhat different things. Regards, Uri Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 10, 2019, at 18:46, StJohns, Michael <msj@nthpermutation.com> wrote: > > I’ve been wondering for a while now whether it’s time to move the CFRG over to the IETF as a working group. Stephen’s comment on routing stuff directly to the CFRG suggests to me that it’s probably time or RSN. > > In recent years, the CFRG has produced documents that are for lack of a better phrase de facto standards. The rate of document production of the CFRG mimics more closely that of a WG than the other extant RGs AFAICT. As an RG the CFRG isn’t permitted to publish standards track documents, nor is the IESG or the ISE permitted or constrained to require a conflict review on the documents the CFRG does produce. [the latter comment is my understanding of the rules of the research stream - it may be flawed, but the purpose of RGs is supposed to be looking at futures and that by definition shouldn’t be conflicting with the nows]. > > An alternative might be to charter a crypto standards WG and try to keep the CFRG focused on years out - say how the heck do we deal with the quantum apocalypse? > > Or keep the math in CFRG and the on the wire specs for using in a WG. > > > > Discuss! > > Mike > >> On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 17:48 Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: >> >> Hiya, >> >> On 10/03/2019 20:57, Tony Arcieri wrote: >> > >> > I think there are significant compelling reasons to prefer OCB mode >> > over pretty much all other existing modes: >> >> FWIW, I don't, because we're not dealing with a clean slate. >> >> In the IETF context, whether or not OCB is a bit better >> then currently deployed modes is not an interesting >> question. >> >> One interesting question might be: is OCB so much better >> that it could we displace uses of some existing mode with >> OCB. That seems unlikely to me for the widely used modes. >> >> Another interesting question might be: is OCB so much >> better that we want to deploy it alongside current modes. >> I don't see the overall benefit of that myself. >> >> So even though I'm happy to accept that OCB has better >> properties than e.g. GCM, I don't think it's so much >> better that RFCs for it are that useful. >> >> That said, if the RFC for such a thing said "this is nice >> for brand new stuff (although library support will be less >> comprehensive) but is not worth the costs associated >> with adding it to existing protocols" then I'd be less >> against such RFCs being produced. Understandably enough, >> that kind of statement doesn't get added to such RFCs;-) >> >> S. >> >> PS: In case the ISE is still listening, the above is a >> reason why I think having CFRG produce this kind of RFC >> (instead of routing 'em via the ISE) would be a better >> plan. CFRG could (I think) likely reach better informed >> judgements (in the open) as to whether or not some crypto >> technique is really worth documenting in an RFC. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Cfrg mailing list >> Cfrg@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg > _______________________________________________ > Cfrg mailing list > Cfrg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg
- [secdir] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts RFC ISE (Adrian Farrel)
- Re: [secdir] ISE seeks help with some crypto draf… Paul Wouters
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Salz, Rich
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… David Wong
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… John Mattsson
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… mcgrew
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Ted Krovetz
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Wouters
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Watson Ladd
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Wouters
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… S Moonesamy
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Ted Krovetz
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a working grou… StJohns, Michael
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Salz, Rich
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Salz, Rich
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… John Mattsson
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Valery Smyslov
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Mathy Vanhoef
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Michael StJohns
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Salz, Rich
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Michael StJohns
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Michael StJohns
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paterson Kenneth
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paul Wouters
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paterson Kenneth
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Watson Ladd
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Melinda Shore
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Melinda Shore
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… mcgrew
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Watson Ladd
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paul Wouters
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Michael StJohns
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… mcgrew
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… StJohns, Michael
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] ISE seeks help with some crypto draf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… mcgrew
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… mcgrew
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Ted Krovetz
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Benjamin Kaduk