Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our processes (Re: Network Programming - Penultimate Segment Popping)
"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Fri, 06 December 2019 15:09 UTC
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To: otroan@employees.org
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2019 10:09:29 -0500
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Subject: Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our processes (Re: Network Programming - Penultimate Segment Popping)
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Ole, there is no IETF accepted definition of "limited domain". There is no IETF rough consensus that it is sensible for us to standardize things for "limtied domains". While there are standards that are designed for specific deployments, they do not to date use that as an excuse to violate existing RFCs. Hence, as far as I can tell, the assertion that SRv6 is for limited domains does not justify or excuse violating RFC 8200. And "I want to save some bytes", while very nice, is not a sufficient reason to violate an approved RFC, must less a Full Standard. Yours, Joel On 12/6/2019 3:34 AM, otroan@employees.org wrote: > Enno, > >>>> comply with it. The onus is on them, not on us asking folks to comply >>>> with existing standards. >>> >>> Yes, we have heard your position on this now. >>> There is of course a lot more nuance to this argument. >> >> could you please explain said 'nuance' in more detail? > > I could try, although I fear it will be a rehash of what has already been said many times already in this debate. > > The IETF and the Internet architecture has a pugnacious relationship with packet mangling in the network. > Steve embodied the Internet architeure principles in the IPv6 protocol suite. > The IPv6 architecture consists only of routers and hosts (no middleboxes). > Ensuring that routers would not need to process further into the packet than the IPv6 header, and ensure that extension header chains were expensive to parse in hardware. As well as requiring all implementations to support IPsec. Knowing that encryption was the only way to guarantee end to end transparency. > > Now, contrast that with the "real world", I challenge you to find a service on the Internet where the packet isn't mangled in some way between the two end-points. Be that IPv4 or IPv6. > > The problems with header insertion on the open Internet are well understood. > > That's not what is being discussed here though. > What is discussed here is what is acceptable to do within a limited domain. > To packets that _you_ own, i.e. originate and terminate within a domain where you control all devices. > > If I own and manage three routers, R1 -- R2 -- R3. > You are saying that if R1 sends a packet to R3, it is not allowed to off-load some functions to R2? > Going to be difficult to do stuff like service chaining then. > > When putting in the restrictions in RFC8200, which makes a lot of sense on the open Internet, it was always clear that there could and would be exceptions to this. Those are the ones we are discussing now. > > Conflating the two use cases and claiming that the arguments for why it's a bad idea on the open Internet also applies to a limited domain, only serves to polarise the debate. > > My suspicion is that the header insertion argument is a straw-man. > > Best regards, > Ole > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >
- [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Segmen… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… otroan
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… otroan
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Fernando Gont
- [spring] We don't seem to be following our proces… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Enno Rey
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Enno Rey
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Ole Troan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- [spring] Separating issues (was Re: We don't seem… Suresh Krishnan
- [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8200 … Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [spring] Separating issues (was Re: We don't … Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Tom Herbert
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Mark Smith
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- [spring] Non-final destination address (was Re: P… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [spring] Non-final destination address (was R… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Non-final destination address (was R… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [spring] Non-final destination address (was R… Fernando Gont