[spring] Separating issues (was Re: We don't seem to be following our processes (Re: Network Programming - Penultimate Segment Popping))

Suresh Krishnan <Suresh@kaloom.com> Sat, 07 December 2019 07:13 UTC

Return-Path: <Suresh@kaloom.com>
X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D0B120120; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 23:13:43 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=kaloom.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id guwrtNO76C2y; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 23:13:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from CAN01-QB1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr660119.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.66.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D48E6120114; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 23:13:40 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=lk4kxu9tYJaI4GNFumuRB73z0C1SJaRlcA0P7A0lMDIGPdHGncmykXwttgruGXq0BMgC0iejmGNxREq+IEhZdn87Zn6ZtZChP/uVKcHge6EJ7cKvyNE89Vw958ZRNkSzFt780XfOpCzZg4vzAyq6G3PtOS58W/2tv/3YPhknNuXZ1wVGZYKfGaz6xkfDHyORFT8UqhxnCqa8wn6avLBNgjaNevost5jXp7OKyGb6gaRXQj7S6pUr4r6gtFcMLd75q+xKVoOX5Ud1mynekHw5Jrft5xjNLbYJtTENaUDNwn260AFxyQZu0l4UZ00PQokfgUOjzYloMF7Txe65GT9WSQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=IlOUPpG74Rvf6lPfl/hywR9+u0+NABsj3r2HI94DJUE=; b=HQK/BQZx2SNs02nHA2alBLhk4C59jAbLWvUdPtvR5XL9ztsqwOOs3N/I1tlGG5EhZZTbnvkg7q3Lo5eIrAq0X5WnEaCTJBQTk4jC92k4p29vRkn5uZDo5WSUZKrCcEbX/RWg5nvEU7YXGAsLqEa0fTBCV1vzS3IACfqJhX50OkMgc/yK51yLz79ma0d5IfLChgMHC+I1pynfbqm+a3etq1CyVdfE35lsmd3HqFl8n4nxPqunRDMn877uxfORBC5U7GBYoO/65cAv36uNpwsF+0w+NiNkCrBS23AuoonWGeX1D9VYNuHXGsWzHx4CMJl4BrXv2YUseWYAdaxij0/x1w==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=kaloom.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=kaloom.com; dkim=pass header.d=kaloom.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kaloom.com; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=IlOUPpG74Rvf6lPfl/hywR9+u0+NABsj3r2HI94DJUE=; b=Mfg1lHbhIT5fJ9f1xBOoXPQUp5nmV/AABjgrPJkDGYQI4kV7qNrE8xpibLLpfBwvR+wiANy0Ihmskc06CjKMuX5mhCjn85+wHgJ9JPkqBWVs8aHWZiJI5N4zBjtNfusZnvCx+5c9ZOlUtK97p25jT3bJxXMEuTnih0QFS4dvbvA=
Received: from YQXPR01MB2888.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (52.132.92.18) by YQXPR01MB2869.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (52.132.94.84) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2516.17; Sat, 7 Dec 2019 07:13:37 +0000
Received: from YQXPR01MB2888.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::cdc8:a6f5:5192:8f44]) by YQXPR01MB2888.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::cdc8:a6f5:5192:8f44%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2516.017; Sat, 7 Dec 2019 07:13:37 +0000
From: Suresh Krishnan <Suresh@kaloom.com>
To: 6man <6man@ietf.org>, SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
CC: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "int-ads@ietf.org" <int-ads@ietf.org>, rtg-ads <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
Thread-Topic: Separating issues (was Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our processes (Re: Network Programming - Penultimate Segment Popping))
Thread-Index: AQHVrM3Yz4mQR18+6EG17G9DXlCLYA==
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 07:13:37 +0000
Message-ID: <C17FBA5F-A2C1-48C0-B668-F387D9E4C1C2@kaloom.com>
References: <f2a0ad13-0eba-6f5a-1d3c-e45e2780f201@si6networks.com> <D666EA6E-E8E9-439A-9CDE-20857F03CB65@employees.org> <4255AD3B-379C-45BF-96E1-D3D9141A684F@liquidtelecom.com> <d59de54e-c7f8-be67-1e77-b051735d40a6@gmail.com> <3bce7b18-ea45-d29f-5dfb-1d3258b07d1e@si6networks.com> <c6e1f690-b0bf-9f45-8fa7-92ed182c5b04@gmail.com> <a2cc5cbd-ac06-e193-307c-3ffe5b21b0b1@si6networks.com>
In-Reply-To: <a2cc5cbd-ac06-e193-307c-3ffe5b21b0b1@si6networks.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Suresh@kaloom.com;
x-originating-ip: [222.229.224.101]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b7d14e13-e543-45d9-6e37-08d77ae4faf4
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: YQXPR01MB2869:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <YQXPR01MB28692E598E57D179FCCBC812B45E0@YQXPR01MB2869.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508;
x-forefront-prvs: 0244637DEA
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(39850400004)(136003)(346002)(366004)(376002)(396003)(199004)(189003)(53754006)(2616005)(86362001)(66946007)(66476007)(66446008)(66556008)(64756008)(6486002)(76176011)(36756003)(71200400001)(5660300002)(6512007)(33656002)(4326008)(186003)(26005)(54896002)(71190400001)(76116006)(91956017)(80792005)(54906003)(81156014)(81166006)(508600001)(8676002)(53546011)(966005)(110136005)(316002)(6506007)(7416002)(102836004)(8936002)(2906002)(99286004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:YQXPR01MB2869; H:YQXPR01MB2888.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: kaloom.com does not designate permitted sender hosts)
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C17FBA5FA2C148C0B668F387D9E4C1C2kaloomcom_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: kaloom.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b7d14e13-e543-45d9-6e37-08d77ae4faf4
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Dec 2019 07:13:37.6480 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 47d58e26-f796-48e8-ac40-1c365c204513
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: QsIXx7Oqr24DI4wDpD/VypyjKkiSZHSy+N4gz4k6Vuzhz0Ra2ffIElh/dYTPJKuzERJmQylQ3N4GN53h6zNwIg==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: YQXPR01MB2869
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ch_dFy6WZ0phqM_q4_SxDd7mqzI>
Subject: [spring] Separating issues (was Re: We don't seem to be following our processes (Re: Network Programming - Penultimate Segment Popping))
X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" <spring.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/spring>, <mailto:spring-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spring/>
List-Post: <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:spring-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring>, <mailto:spring-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2019 07:13:44 -0000

(Apologies up front. I am about to get on a 10 hr flight and will be unable to respond for at least that period)

Hi all,
  Picking the last message in the thread to reply to. It looks to me that there are at least two different (but related) issues being discussed here

a) Spring SRv6 NP behavior (related to the WGLC of that draft)
b) The Header insertion drafts and how to deal with them

I really think that

a) should preferably stay in the spring ML and a pointer to the discussion sent to the 6man mailing list would be in order
b) should preferably stay in the 6man ML

I think the communities for the two drafts are different and I think the discussions can be more focused if the issues are addressed by the relevant wgs. As to what happens if the spring draft hits the IESG and contains text in violation of RFC8200, I had already sent my thoughts about this back in September

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uA-WxxgBJeMu65SkrKCTL5BJMcU

with the relevant text

"If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IESG for evaluation, I will certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violations are fixed.”

*In my view*, the authors of the SRv6 NP draft have made an effort to address these violations by removing the header insertion from the draft. We can continue discussing whether penultimate hop popping constitutes a violation on the spring mailing list (I intend to respond to Fernando’a mail there).

Thanks
Suresh

On Dec 7, 2019, at 11:07 AM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com<mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>> wrote:

On 6/12/19 23:47, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
Again, comment at the end...
On 07-Dec-19 14:37, Fernando Gont wrote:
On 6/12/19 22:15, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
[...]

and if such a thing is required, an update to RFC8200 should be done.

Why does that follow? Alternatively, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming could acknowledge that it deviates from RFC8200.

You can deviate from s "should", not from a "must". This is an outright
violation of a spec, rather than a mere "deviation".


Whether that's acceptable would be a question for the IETF Last Call rather than any single WG.

I would expect that a WG cannot ship a document that is violating an
existing spec, where the wg shipping the document is not in a position
of making decisions regarding the spec being violated.

That would be like a waste of energy and time for all.



At the moment, the draft only mentions RFC8200 in a context that discusses neither insertion nor removal of extension headers, which is beside the point. Like draft-voyer, if it describes a violation of RFC8200, shouldn't that be explicit in the text?

There's a lot of jargon in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. I can't tell from the jargon whether "insert" means "insert on the fly" and whether "Pop the SRH" means "delete on the fly". Should those terms be clarified before the draft advances?

Well, if it's not clear to you, it would seem to me that the simple
answer would be "yes".

But if "insert" refers to the encapsulating node at the SR domain ingress, it's no problem, and if "pop" simply means doing normal routing header processing, it's no problem. It simply isn't clear in the text, at least not clear to me.

The fact that a folk that has been deeply involved with IPv6 cannot
unequivocally tell what they talking about should be an indication with
respect to how ready the document is to be shipped.

(pop when you are the destination but SL!=0 is essentially 'in the
network removal')

THanks,
--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com<mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492