Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465
Mark Allman <mallman@icir.org> Thu, 12 August 2021 19:06 UTC
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From: Mark Allman <mallman@icir.org>
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Yuchung Cheng <ycheng=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Extensions <tcpm@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 15:06:20 -0400
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465
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> If I understand the current document state correctly, the current ABC > guidance we have is > > RFC3465 (Experimental): L=2 > RFC5681 (PS): L=1 Yep. > 1. The most comprehensive solution would be a 3465bis PS doc that > obsoletes 3465 and updates 5681 with L= Infinity, 8, or > whatever number the group decides on. If we agree this is the > right thing to do and someone has the energy to drop > 3465bis-00, then let's do so to have a basis of discussion. Approach-wise this is OK. But, there are issues here ... - First, we could probably move to L=2 pretty easily (as standard). We have been using byte counting with standard delayed ACKs for a long time in stacks that do not use an L. So, we have effectively been living with this. - Moving to L > 2 (5, 10, \infinity) would seem to me to require someone to make the case that we have experience that suggests this is OK. Or, that we have some suggestions that we could run at experimental L>2 for a while. There have been a bunch of folks saying that we understand L > 2 works fine, but in pretty hand-wavy, mailing list sorts of ways. I.e., there are stretch ACKs. Or, there is an implementation with an L. Or, there are offload systems that aggregate packets/ACKs. When we haven't seen---that I am aware of---is a discussion that shows L > 2 is a good idea. Or, that it isn't a bad idea. It seems to me that the usual way these things get advanced is to offer some tangible / concrete assessment that says "hey, this is perhaps a reasonable thing to change". - I am not saying we shouldn't change L. Perhaps we should. E.g., with pacing it seems like a no-brainer. I am just saying that the case hasn't even been attempted. > 3. There might be interest in a more generalized 5681bis, but my > instinct is that this is a bigger job that will delay the most > urgently needed update -- which is not to say that we shouldn't > do that document too. I think a very scoped 5681bis could be done quickly. If it is a change to L and/or a change to IW we can use the 6298 model and make the very tiny text change and add an appendix that justifies the change. So, the normative text of the RFC changes very little. > 4. However, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to rope in an > IW update (6928bis) in 3465bis, if it doesn't add too much time. It all > fits in with the general theme of the maximum allowable burst on the > internet in the absence of any sort of pacing (ack-driven or > stack-enforced). Hm. Well. Hm. I'd have to think about that one. I do think that just defining some general burst limit could prove to be thorny. E.g., if you said the max burst size was 10 so IW=10 would be fine then would a stretch ACK that covered 20 packets only be able to liberate 10 packets? Or, if we said a stretch ACK could liberate 20 packets would that imply an IW of 20 packets? And, do we really draw no distinction between what we can send into an unknown network and what we can send into a network we have probed enough to have some idea about? This seems difficult. allman
- [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Neal Cardwell
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Lars Eggert
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Neal Cardwell
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Neal Cardwell
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Neal Cardwell
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Neal Cardwell
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 David Lang
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Neal Cardwell
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Neal Cardwell
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Neal Cardwell
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Neal Cardwell
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Yoshifumi Nishida
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Neal Cardwell
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Yoshifumi Nishida
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Linux doesn’t implement… Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Martin Duke
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Martin Duke
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Michael Tuexen
- Re: [tcpm] Linux doesn’t implement RFC3465 Mark Allman