Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - isolation and resolution
John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> Wed, 29 April 2020 13:57 UTC
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Zhenghaomian <zhenghaomian@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - isolation and resolution
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - isolation and resolution
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This is exactly correct. How an SP chooses to meet an SLO is their business. Yours Irrespectively, John Juniper Business Use Only > -----Original Message----- > From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 11:52 PM > To: Zhenghaomian <zhenghaomian@huawei.com> > Cc: teas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - isolation and > resolution > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > On the topic of isolation, I would suggest that you > 1) remove the current text related to isolation > 2) figure out what it is that is observable and well-defined > 3) figure out a name for that, and propose the name and definition > > I presume that this addition will require discussion among the design team, since > it would be a significant change to the document. Or it could be proposed in a > separate document for now. > > Separately, I suggest a similar approach to the current resolution text, as it does > not make sense as written. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 4/28/2020 11:36 PM, Zhenghaomian wrote: > > Hi, All, > > > > Agree on we have multiple kinds of isolations, and we may need to > > differentiate them. It reminds me in some previous discussions we may > > separate the isolation from the user side and from the network side. > > > > Isolation at the user side: just indicate the demand about a > > comprehensive performance from the user. For example, when requesting > > a transport slice, request some isolation if the user is sensitive to > > latency (or something similar); or, don’t request any isolation if the > > user is not sensitive to such parameters. > > > > Isolation at the network side: how to technically guarantee the > > isolation (in VPN, etc.), which is already existing as cited in Jie’s > > email. > > > > Basically I think we need the ‘isolation at the user side’, but this > > isolation is different with what is indicated in ‘Isolation at the > > network side’. We may need better definition on ‘isolation as a part > > of SLO’, instead of simply removing it. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Haomian > > > > *发件人:*Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] *代表 *Igor Bryskin > > *发送时间:*2020年4月29日1:52 > > *收件人:*Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Greg Mirsky > > <gregimirsky@gmail.com> > > *抄送:*Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; teas@ietf.org > > *主题:*Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - isolation > > and resolution > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > Flow isolation and network isolation are different things. For > > example, you do not expect receiving data in one network broadcasted > > over properly isolated another network. Likewise, you do not expect > > congestion in one network caused by an activity in another (isolated) > > network. Om the other hand, flows in the same network may influence on > > each other. > > > > Igor > > > > On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 12:30:38 PM EDT, Greg Mirsky > > <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > Hi Jie, > > > > thank you for listing the existing cases of isolation term use in IETF > > RFCs. My understanding of these quotes is that most of them refer to > > data flow isolation/separation. And that is what Connectivity > > Verification OAM is intended to monitor. At the same time, as Joel has > > pointed out, the term isolation is being used in the > > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition in a different manner, > > particularly in Section 4.1.1. In that section, several levels (hard > > and > > soft) of the isolation are discussed whereas isolation of data flows, > > in my understanding, is always "hard". As I've mentioned earlier, we > > might look for different terms when referring to use/access to > > underlay resources vs. data flows interaction. > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 2:31 AM Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com > > <mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>> wrote: > > > > Hi Joel and Greg, > > > > As I mentioned during the virtual meeting, isolation was described > > as a requirement in several PPVPN requirement and framework RFCs. In > > summary, isolation is firstly required to avoid unwanted exposure of > > both data traffic and routing information, then it is also mentioned > > that isolation is needed to avoid the effects of traffic congestion > > happened in other VPNs in the network. > > > > Just quote some of them: > > > > RFC 3809: Generic Requirements for Provider Provisioned Virtual > > Private Networks (PPVPN) > > > > 4.4. Data isolation > > > > The PPVPN MUST support forwarding plane isolation. The network MUST > > never deliver user data across VPN boundaries unless the two VPNs > > participate in an intranet or extranet. > > > > Furthermore, if the provider network receives signaling or routing > > information from one VPN, it MUST NOT reveal that information to > > another VPN unless the two VPNs participate in an intranet or > > extranet. > > > > > > RFC 4031: Service Requirements for Layer 3 Provider Provisioned > > Virtual Private Networks (PPVPNs) > > > > 4.1. Isolated Exchange of Data and Routing Information > > > > A mechanism must be provided for isolating the distribution of > > reachability information to only those sites associated with a VPN. > > ... > > Note that isolation of forwarded data or exchange of reachability > > information to only those sites that are part of a VPN may be viewed > > as a form of security - for example, [Y.1311.1], [MPLSSEC]. > > > > 5.8. Isolation > > > > These features include traffic and routing information exchange > > isolation, similar to that obtained in VPNs based on Layer 1 and > > Layer 2 (e.g., private lines, FR, or ATM) [MPLSSEC]. > > > > 6.8. Isolation of Traffic and Routing > > ... > > From a high-level SP perspective, a PE-based L3VPN MUST isolate the > > exchange of traffic and routing information to only those sites that > > are authenticated and authorized members of a VPN. > > > > In a CE-based VPN, the tunnels that connect the sites effectively > > meet this isolation requirement if both traffic and routing > > information flow over the tunnels. > > > > An L3VPN solution SHOULD provide a means to meet L3VPN QoS SLA > > requirements that isolates VPN traffic from the effects of traffic > > offered by non-VPN customers. Also, L3VPN solutions SHOULD > > provide a > > means to isolate the effects that traffic congestion produced by > > sites as part of one VPN can have on another VPN. > > > > > > RFC 4110: A Framework for Layer 3 Provider-Provisioned Virtual > > Private Networks (PPVPNs) > > > > 1.2 Overview of Virtual Private Networks > > > > In PE-based layer 3 VPNs, the PE devices may > > route the VPN traffic based on the customer addresses found in > > the IP > > headers; this implies that the PE devices need to maintain a > > level of > > isolation between the packets from different customer networks... > > ... > > Tunneling is also important for other reasons, such as providing > > isolation between different customer networks, allowing a wide range > > of protocols to be carried over an SP network, etc. Different QoS > > and security characteristics may be associated with different > > tunnels. > > > > 4. 3 VPN Tunneling > > > > Another capability optionally provided by tunneling is that of > > isolation between different VPN traffic flows. The QoS and security > > requirements for these traffic flows may differ, and can be met by > > using different tunnels with the appropriate characteristics. This > > allows a provider to offer different service characteristics for > > traffic in different VPNs, or to subsets of traffic flows within a > > single VPN. > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Best regards, > > Jie > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:teas- > bounces@ietf..org>] On Behalf Of > > Joel M. Halpern > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 5:33 AM > > > To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com > <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> > > > Cc: teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> > > > Subject: Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - isolation and > > > resolution > > > > > > Greg, that definition seems to be a specific subset of VPN. > > > As far as I can tell, the slice definition does include what endpoints the > slice > > > participants can talk to. Presumably, with some way to say "the Internet". > > > So Whether the slice supports communication with the Internet or not is > > > definitely an observable property. I would tend not to call it isolation. > > > Separately, the definition you propose is unrelated to the definition in the > > > document, Which is why I suggest, for now, removing all discussion of > > > isolation from the document. > > > > > > Yours, > > > Joel > > > > > > On 4/27/2020 5:22 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > > > Dear Joel, > > > > thank you for bringing the matter of "isolation" to the discussion. I > > > > agree, that it is not practical to expect physical isolation in modern > > > > networks. In my view, a transport slice that requires isolation is as > > > > a transport connection that expects to receive data only from the > > > > specific domain and not from any other domain. In other words, I view > > > > isolation as the absence of mis-connectivity (in transport network > > > > interpretation which differentiates between path continuity check and > > > > connectivity verification). If my interpretation is acceptable, then > > > > isolation can be monitored using connectivity verification OAM > > > mechanism(s). > > > > I much appreciate your thoughts, opinion on the proposed > > > > interpretation of isolation on transport slice. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 8:57 AM Joel Halpern Direct > > > > <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern..com> > > <mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com > <mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Trimmed, in line. > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > On 4/26/2020 11:08 AM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > > > > > Please see some replies inline: > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:teas- > bounces@ietf.org> > > > > <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf..org>>] > On Behalf Of > > Joel M. Halpern > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:52 AM > > > > >> To: Zhenghaomian <zhenghaomian@huawei.com > <mailto:zhenghaomian@huawei.com> > > > > <mailto:zhenghaomian@huawei.com > <mailto:zhenghaomian@huawei.com>>>; > > teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> > > > <mailto:teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>> > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - > > > > isolation and > > > > >> resolution > > > > >> > > > > .... > > > > >> More importantly, it is not something the customer has any way > > > > to verify. > > > > >> There is no test a customer can run that will verify this. > > > > >> Making unverifiable promises is rarely a useful thing to do. > > > > > > > > > > Totally agree that tools for verification is important. As > > > > mentioned in Haomian's mail, isolation can be verified with suitable > > > > tools which can be used to collect the information at the necessary > > > > places with a suitable interval. And it is important that customers > > > > can be provided with such tools to monitor the performance and be > > > > informed of SLA violation. > > > > > > > > As far as I can tell, the observable that you describe is latency > > > > variation (or maybe loss). Fine, describe the SLO in terms of latency > > > > variation (or loss). Given that there are always imperfections in > > > the > > > > system, the customer may think that the issue is isolation. But > > > > what he > > > > can observe, and as far as I can tell what he cares about, is delay > > > > variation, loss, or other factors that affect his traffic. > > > > > > > > To use a different example, I have learned from the advocates to hate > > > > bufferbloat. But even their tests measure delay, delay variation, > > > > etc.. > > > > They then infer the presence of large buffers. But in fact, if the > > > > large buffers are present but never used, we would all be happy. So > > > > the > > > > SLO on this would be in terms of latency, latency variation, loss, etc. > > > > Not bufferbloat.` > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Jie > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> Yours, > > > > >> Joel > > > > >> > > > > >> PS: Note that I understand that operators get asked for odd > > > > things mby > > > > >> customers. But if we are going to define standards to support > > > > it, we need to > > > > >> understand the actual need. > > > > >> > > > > >> On 4/25/2020 10:44 PM, Zhenghaomian wrote: > > > > >>> Not sure if I understand your question correctly. > > > > >>> Well, it's reasonable for people to request hard isolation > > > > because 'I don't want > > > > >> my data to be transported together with other people's data'. > > > > >>> For delivery this can be achieved by separating physical > > > > devices/connections, > > > > >> which are visible to users. For example dedicated boxes and > > > > fibers will guarantee > > > > >> the user's data is not mixed with others... > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Best wishes, > > > > >>> Haomian > > > > >>> > > > > >>> -----邮件原件----- > > > > >>> 发件人: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com > > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com> > > > > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>] > > > > >>> 发送时间: 2020年4月26日10:34 > > > > >>> 收件人: Zhenghaomian <zhenghaomian@huawei.com > > <mailto:zhenghaomian@huawei.com> > > > > <mailto:zhenghaomian@huawei.com > <mailto:zhenghaomian@huawei.com>>>; > > teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> > > > <mailto:teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>> > > > > >>> 主题: Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - > > > > isolation and > > > > >>> resolution > > > > >>> > > > > >>> (trimmed) > > > > >>> What is the user perceivable effect that the user is asking for > > > > when you say "if > > > > >> the user requests isolation"? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Yours, > > > > >>> Joel > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On 4/25/2020 10:31 PM, Zhenghaomian wrote: > > > > >>>> Hi, Kiran, Joel, > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> ... > > > > >>>> BTW, regarding the isolation, I don't see the necessity to > > > > argue whether it > > > > >> should be in SLO or not. The isolation itself, can either be > > > > requested by the user > > > > >> of the transport slice (then from NBI of TSC) to express the > > > > demand of reliability, > > > > >> or be offered by the provider of the transport slice (then from > > > > the SBI of TSC) to > > > > >> achieve the SLO requested from the user. In other words, if the > > > > user requests > > > > >> certain level of isolation in an SLO, such isolation should be > > > > provided; if the user > > > > >> does not request certain level of isolation (no isolation > > > > request in SLO), then > > > > >> there may be some isolation provided to satisfy the user's > > > request. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Best wishes, > > > > >>>> Haomian > > > > >> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> Teas mailing list > > > > >> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org> <mailto:Teas@ietf.org > > <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>> > > > > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas__;!!N > Et6yMaO-gk!RCLTSUdiC4YDLf34fu9GfHdhmwhODl-m9b0CoNPmTInchmF- > 5E564tOGGuu5Hro$ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Teas mailing list > > > > Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org> <mailto:Teas@ietf.org > > <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>> > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/teas__;!! > NEt6yMaO-gk!RCLTSUdiC4YDLf34fu9GfHdhmwhODl-m9b0CoNPmTInchmF- > 5E564tOGW8R9S1s$ > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas__;!! > NEt6yMaO-gk!RCLTSUdiC4YDLf34fu9GfHdhmwhODl-m9b0CoNPmTInchmF- > 5E564tOGGuu5Hro$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Teas mailing list > > > > Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org> > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas__;!!N > Et6yMaO-gk!RCLTSUdiC4YDLf34fu9GfHdhmwhODl-m9b0CoNPmTInchmF- > 5E564tOGGuu5Hro$ > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Teas mailing list > > > Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org> > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > __;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RCLTSUdiC4YDLf34fu9GfHdhmwhODl- > m9b0CoNPmTInchmF-5E564 > > tOGGuu5Hro$ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teas mailing list > > Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > __;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RCLTSUdiC4YDLf34fu9GfHdhmwhODl- > m9b0CoNPmTInchmF-5E564 > > tOGGuu5Hro$ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas__;!!N > Et6yMaO-gk!RCLTSUdiC4YDLf34fu9GfHdhmwhODl-m9b0CoNPmTInchmF- > 5E564tOGGuu5Hro$
- [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Zhenghaomian
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Zhenghaomian
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- [Teas] 答复: Network Slicing design team definition… Zhenghaomian
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Luis M. Contreras
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Luis M. Contreras
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Igor Bryskin
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Zhenghaomian
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… David Sinicrope
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Zhenghaomian
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Daniele Ceccarelli
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Igor Bryskin
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern