Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP authentication: the next generation
Marsh Ray <marsh@extendedsubset.com> Thu, 16 December 2010 19:31 UTC
Return-Path: <marsh@extendedsubset.com>
X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E5B93A69C8; Thu, 16 Dec 2010 11:31:19 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.591
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.591 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PaS+aehBc6ck; Thu, 16 Dec 2010 11:31:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mho-02-ewr.mailhop.org (mho-02-ewr.mailhop.org [204.13.248.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435043A69C7; Thu, 16 Dec 2010 11:31:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from xs01.extendedsubset.com ([69.164.193.58]) by mho-02-ewr.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <marsh@extendedsubset.com>) id 1PTJZW-000DRV-CF; Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:33:02 +0000
Received: from [192.168.1.15] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xs01.extendedsubset.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B07360C6; Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:32:58 +0000 (UTC)
X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS
X-Originating-IP: 69.164.193.58
X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.com (see http://www.dyndns.com/services/mailhop/outbound_abuse.html for abuse reporting information)
X-MHO-User: U2FsdGVkX1/FJrTY9uCYiXUNsZ5gCCuFYP7jyQqh5RI=
Message-ID: <4D0A6969.7010309@extendedsubset.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 13:32:57 -0600
From: Marsh Ray <marsh@extendedsubset.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101208 Thunderbird/3.1.7
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: der Mouse <mouse@Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4D02AF81.6000907@stpeter.im> <p06240809c928635499e8@[10.20.30.150]> <ADDEC353-8DE6-408C-BC75-A50B795E2F6C@checkpoint.com> <78BD0B98-0F20-478B-85F1-DBB45691EB0D@padl.com> <4D0479E3.4050508@gmail.com> <4D04D7D6.4090105@isode.com> <A23730A9-728B-4533-96D7-0B62496CC98A@checkpoint.com> <4D051731.1020400@isode.com> <4D054041.7010203@cisco.com> <0435D11C-DF55-464D-B23F-F5D114DEE2C3@checkpoint.com> <2229.1292235952.971571@puncture> <4D05FB8F.3070804@qbik.com> <2229.1292239384.281779@puncture> <96517E19-5DC7-47A0-8C21-C710F6F8F772@tzi.org> <5D5AF795-22AB-4726-B791-3706693466C3@checkpoint.com> <4D063CA5.8060907@gmail.com> <878FA115-D801-4063-AD87-DB2C2B2DE0D1@checkpoint.com> <4D0672F2.4070600@extendedsubset.com> <201012161827.NAA03511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
In-Reply-To: <201012161827.NAA03511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:11:20 -0800
Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org, websec@ietf.org, kitten@ietf.org, http-auth@ietf.org, ietf-http-wg@w3.org, saag@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP authentication: the next generation
X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols <apps-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss>, <mailto:apps-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss>
List-Post: <mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:apps-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss>, <mailto:apps-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:31:19 -0000
On 12/16/2010 12:27 PM, der Mouse wrote: > > Quite aside from memorizability, few-to-no humans are capable of > performing the cryptographic operations (large-number arithmetic, > usually) necessary to carry out certificate operations, at least not > with the required levels of reliability. (I can do multi-hundred-digit > arithmetic, yes, but not nearly either fast enough or free enough of > mistakes to be useful for the purpose.) Which is a good argument for it being an example of something a computer is better at. Many auth systems have a component which involves something humans are good at and computers are lousy at. > Certificates, at best, determine that some device which is capable of > performing the cryptographic operations has been given access to the > corresponding private data.... All passwords demonstrate is > that some device capable of injecting data into the comm channel in > question knows the password. That's a good way to describe it. > But passwords rarely lull people into > forgetting the difference. Pen-and-paper signatures work because people have thousands of years of history behind pen technology. It fits well the courtroom test "did you or did you not sign that document". It surely happens, but is extremely rare that someone who actually signed a contract would later claim that it was a forgery, or that their pen and paper were compromised by an attacker. >> For most systems, the vast majority of 'no's are not actual attacks. > > Are you sure of that? There are an awful lot of doorknob-rattlers out > there. Most of the login failures I see on my machines actually _are_ > attackers poking to see if I've made stupid mistakes. OK so there's a baseline attack rate for any given port number. If you use the system infrequently enough, attackers outweigh the legitimate users. But, for example, I personally mistype my password about 10 to 25% of the time. That's a correct 'authentication denied' scenario but it's not an attack. Systems with a meaningful amount of legitimate activity, and are not specially targeted for some reason, are going to have many more mistyped passwords than credible attacks. >> Yeah. How did the user select their password for the website in the >> first place, if not by an HTML form POST? > >> If it was good enough for the initial sign up, why should the web >> designer use something other than HTML form POST for the regular >> login? > > For all that that's rhetorical, there is an answer: because one occurs > only once while the other occurs many times. I bet for a lot of systems, people sign up once and try it out then go away and leave their accounts dormant. E.g., I might create an account to buy tickets for something and never go back. So why can't the attacker attack it that one time then? You've never signed up for a new account from a hotel or a public wifi? Even still, how do you convince a web designer that they must give up their HTML login form for security when they have an HTML login form to choose the password in the first place? - Marsh
- Re: [apps-discuss] HTTP authentication: the next … Mark Nottingham
- [apps-discuss] HTTP authentication: the next gene… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] HTTP authentication: th… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] HTTP authentication: … Nicolas Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] HTTP authentication: th… Henry B. Hotz
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] HTTP authentication: … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Josh Howlett
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Josh Howlett
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Luke Howard
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Yaron Sheffer
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] HTTP authentication: th… Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] HTTP authentication: th… Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Eliot Lear
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Eliot Lear
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Eliot Lear
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] HTTP authentication: … Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Adrien de Croy
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [kitten] HTTP authentic… Alan DeKok
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [saag] HTTP authentic… Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Dave Raggett
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Tim Morgan
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Yaron Sheffer
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [websec] [saag] [k… Henry B. Hotz
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [websec] [saag] HT… Henry B. Hotz
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [saag] [kitten] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Steven Bellovin
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … John C Klensin
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [websec] HTTP auth… Tim Morgan
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … John C Klensin
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [kitten] HTTP authentic… Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [saag] [websec] [k… Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … der Mouse
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [saag] [websec] [k… der Mouse
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [saag] [websec] [k… Tim
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Adrien de Croy
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Nathan
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Adrien de Croy
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Josh Howlett
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [saag] [kitten] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Jeffrey Hutzelman
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … David Morris
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Robert Sayre
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Tim
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [saag] [kitten] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … der Mouse
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Blaine Cook
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [saag] [websec] [k… Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Blaine Cook
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Blaine Cook
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Theodore Tso