Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804?

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Wed, 14 October 2020 01:13 UTC

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To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:12:50 +0100
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804?
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On 14/10/2020 01:51, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 01:23:03AM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 14/10/2020 01:12, Toerless Eckert wrote:
>>> TLS 1.3 is the best example. The abuse of IETF principles by its
>>> rough mayority was not the rough consensis on rfc8446, but how it was
>>> made clear that dissenting profiles, even if mean to be used only for
>>> controlled networks would not find a home in the IETF.
>>
>> If I understand your grammar correctly, I consider that
>> counterfactual nonsense.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Offensive, dismissive judgements are not a technical argument.

Asserting that something is counterfactual should not be
offensive. Well perhaps it might to someone who found some
facts offensive, I'm not sure;-) Nonsensical statements are
the opposite of sensible ones, and are common on IETF
lists. I'm quite surprised any of that is surprising to
anyone that posts often.

All that said, I do think a bit of dismissal is warranted
though - the TLS WG wasted a year and a bit on that stuff
for no good reason, so yes I do think those who claim those
nonsense arguments don't deserve to be dismissed are wrong.
(Surely we're ok to dismiss zombie arguments like these,
if for no other reason than efficiency in the face of an
utter lack of new [or actually also of old!] facts?)

> 
>> TLS1.3 was quite a good example
>> of running the process and even of extending the set of
>> people participating to bring in lots of new and real
>> expertise.
> 
> Thanks for rephrasing the first part of what i said. My criticism was
> about the additional TLS profile RFC(s) that did not happen in the IETF due
> to very clear resistance to them even though there was a big enough
> community supporting them. 

Again, that's counterfactual. The proponents of breaking
TLS1.3 in that way, (draft-green et. al.) had many many
opportunities to make their (weak) case. They did that,
some very badly, some less so. And they failed to be
convincing.

Then some of them went to a captive group in ETSI and got a
rubber stamp for their (IMO terrible) idea. For me, that
says more about a lack of quality control in ETSI than
anything else. I hope TLS and web implementers continue to
entirely ignore the output of that supposed piece of
"work."

> Aka: The TLS RFC NOT for the Internet but
> for controlled networks with specific three party trust.

That discussion was had. TLS is a two party protocol. You
may wish the outcome had been otherwise but it was not.

S.

> 
> Cheers
>     Toerless
> 
>> S.
> 
> pub   RSA 4096/7B172BEA 2017-12-22 Stephen Farrell (2017) <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
>> sub   RSA 4096/36CB8BB6 2017-12-22
>>
> 
> 
> 
>