Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804?

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Wed, 14 October 2020 01:13 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E323A12C2 for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 18:13:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.212
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-CApItS_xXJ for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 18:12:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19D103A12C3 for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 18:12:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F75DBE24; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:12:56 +0100 (IST)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2PRS4XNCOI8T; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:12:51 +0100 (IST)
Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0F7FDBE20; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:12:51 +0100 (IST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1602637971; bh=zKFzG2KaNZ+IROD08fDiiOY1RXh/nuUfcA+16l9O5pc=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=JNrWz/30iuBppaAMNPSZqDcQMuLxrI43WzteK3N7H3jdx6ErtySVtGXDrBOz9UW6t txvn/3Oxi/wR3MxwhhCUdC1UjR9PudaBRsK+Ffrt79i3LQSROpFzf9BkQK8f6V97zd k+NK6UTEU4V+kN2rBSaZc9gxXjzYOvcB4kmtPKBg=
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
References: <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <LO2P265MB05736C784B36942C7ECF71ECC2070@LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <e80b6f1e-3949-b2ee-6e61-a2f3dfce9b0c@cs.tcd.ie> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <c5b37390-d463-fa35-215b-569698098d6a@cs.tcd.ie> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <e29dc18a-fd5d-ca0d-90a0-4ec840678054@gmail.com> <LO2P265MB0573F23F5C23ABD3933E49FDC2040@LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <623a0c86-ca51-d07b-34b1-ddec84ac9207@cs.tcd.ie> <20201014005137.GE57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw==
Message-ID: <2856893d-f8b0-8259-5316-2f6c0415fb72@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:12:50 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <20201014005137.GE57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6wt3GhXIlIitW632kTwPzxQMuAg5i8Cgg"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/JbsfMytSO9JtkJP-BtLkdpfZeRc>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804?
X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues <architecture-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 01:13:02 -0000


On 14/10/2020 01:51, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 01:23:03AM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 14/10/2020 01:12, Toerless Eckert wrote:
>>> TLS 1.3 is the best example. The abuse of IETF principles by its
>>> rough mayority was not the rough consensis on rfc8446, but how it was
>>> made clear that dissenting profiles, even if mean to be used only for
>>> controlled networks would not find a home in the IETF.
>>
>> If I understand your grammar correctly, I consider that
>> counterfactual nonsense.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Offensive, dismissive judgements are not a technical argument.

Asserting that something is counterfactual should not be
offensive. Well perhaps it might to someone who found some
facts offensive, I'm not sure;-) Nonsensical statements are
the opposite of sensible ones, and are common on IETF
lists. I'm quite surprised any of that is surprising to
anyone that posts often.

All that said, I do think a bit of dismissal is warranted
though - the TLS WG wasted a year and a bit on that stuff
for no good reason, so yes I do think those who claim those
nonsense arguments don't deserve to be dismissed are wrong.
(Surely we're ok to dismiss zombie arguments like these,
if for no other reason than efficiency in the face of an
utter lack of new [or actually also of old!] facts?)

> 
>> TLS1.3 was quite a good example
>> of running the process and even of extending the set of
>> people participating to bring in lots of new and real
>> expertise.
> 
> Thanks for rephrasing the first part of what i said. My criticism was
> about the additional TLS profile RFC(s) that did not happen in the IETF due
> to very clear resistance to them even though there was a big enough
> community supporting them. 

Again, that's counterfactual. The proponents of breaking
TLS1.3 in that way, (draft-green et. al.) had many many
opportunities to make their (weak) case. They did that,
some very badly, some less so. And they failed to be
convincing.

Then some of them went to a captive group in ETSI and got a
rubber stamp for their (IMO terrible) idea. For me, that
says more about a lack of quality control in ETSI than
anything else. I hope TLS and web implementers continue to
entirely ignore the output of that supposed piece of
"work."

> Aka: The TLS RFC NOT for the Internet but
> for controlled networks with specific three party trust.

That discussion was had. TLS is a two party protocol. You
may wish the outcome had been otherwise but it was not.

S.

> 
> Cheers
>     Toerless
> 
>> S.
> 
> pub   RSA 4096/7B172BEA 2017-12-22 Stephen Farrell (2017) <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
>> sub   RSA 4096/36CB8BB6 2017-12-22
>>
> 
> 
> 
>