Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited
"Bernier, Daniel" <daniel.bernier@bell.ca> Mon, 15 May 2023 15:09 UTC
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From: "Bernier, Daniel" <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>
To: Gianni Antichi <g.antichi@qmul.ac.uk>
CC: "hemant=40mnkcg.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <hemant@mnkcg.com>, Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com>, coin <coin@irtf.org>, "coinrg-chairs@ietf.org" <coinrg-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2023 15:09:29 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited
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Ah yes, Remember reading that paper π thanks for the reminder ! Daniel Bernier From: Gianni Antichi <g.antichi@qmul.ac.uk> Date: Monday, May 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM To: "Bernier, Daniel" <daniel.bernier@bell.ca> Cc: "hemant=40mnkcg.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <hemant@mnkcg.com>, Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com>, coin <coin@irtf.org>, "coinrg-chairs@ietf.org" <coinrg-chairs@ietf.org> Subject: [EXT]Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited Daniel, A recent ASPLOS paper (https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3582016.3582035) and a new AMD/Xilinx compiler (https://github.com/Xilinx/nanotube) might be what you are looking for. Basically they are both solutions to convert eBPF code in synthetizable code for FPGAs. Cheers -- Gianni Antichi, Electronic Engineering and Computer Science, Queen Mary University of London https://gianniantichi.github.io/ On 15 May 2023, at 15:52, Bernier, Daniel <daniel.bernier=40bell.ca@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: Hi, Question to you Hemant, have you ever investigated converting eBPF code HAL directly ? we always see P4 to (eBPF, TC, etc.) but what if we had eBPF to P4 for HW representation ? Regards Daniel Bernier | Bell Canada From: Coin <coin-bounces@irtf.org<mailto:coin-bounces@irtf.org>> on behalf of "hemant=40mnkcg.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:hemant=40mnkcg.com@dmarc.ietf.org>" <hemant=40mnkcg.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:hemant=40mnkcg.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> Date: Monday, May 15, 2023 at 10:29 AM To: 'Marie-Jose Montpetit' <marie@mjmontpetit.com<mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com>>, 'coin' <coin@irtf.org<mailto:coin@irtf.org>> Cc: "coinrg-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:coinrg-chairs@ietf.org>" <coinrg-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:coinrg-chairs@ietf.org>> Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Will try at the next COIN. What I invented for switch SAI and P4 integration has been adapted to NIC to develop a HAL. Further, as of 2018, NICs include 5-6 ARM cores that control-plane runs on and a separate hardware element for data plane. So, the Google SNAP runs on ARM. Developing an open-source SNAP is modest work. Hemant From: Coin <coin-bounces@irtf.ortg<mailto:coin-bounces@irtf.ortg>> On Behalf Of Marie-Jose Montpetit Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 9:52 AM To: hemant@mnkcg.com<mailto:hemant@mnkcg.com>; coin <coin@irtf.org<mailto:coin@irtf.org>> Cc: coinrg-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:coinrg-chairs@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Great. Yes I saw the Google presentation. Maybe you want to tell us about these devs at the next COIN? Marie-JosΓ© Montpetit, Ph.D. marie@mjmontpetit.com<mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> From: hemant@mnkcg.com<mailto:hemant@mnkcg.com> <hemant@mnkcg.com><mailto:hemant@mnkcg.com> Reply: hemant@mnkcg.com<mailto:hemant@mnkcg.com> <hemant@mnkcg.com><mailto:hemant@mnkcg.com> Date: May 15, 2023 at 9:36:19 AM To: Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com><mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com>, coin <coin@irtf.org><mailto:coin@irtf.org> Cc: coinrg-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:coinrg-chairs@ietf.org> <coinrg-chairs@ietf.org><mailto:coinrg-chairs@ietf.org> Subject: RE: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited In Marie-Joseβs email, Google using P4 as HAL presented in this yearβs P4 workshop is technology<https://www.linkedin.com/posts/hemant-singh-a487b47_github-hesinghmnkcg-activity-6987528327272013824-RVhh?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop> invented by my company. My company also made P4 modular. Hemant From: Coin <coin-bounces@irtf.org<mailto:coin-bounces@irtf.org>> On Behalf Of Marie-Jose Montpetit Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 6:34 AM To: coin <coin@irtf.org<mailto:coin@irtf.org>> Cc: coinrg-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:coinrg-chairs@ietf.org> Subject: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Interesting article for out community. mjm Marie-JosΓ© Montpetit, Ph.D. marie@mjmontpetit.com<mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> From: Larry Peterson from Systems Approach <systemsapproach@substack.com><mailto:systemsapproach@substack.com> Reply: Larry Peterson from Systems Approach <reply+1zsws7&rqag0&&3ca860fd966ac1a0bf575ed48379b6645b7df5edc0903e4c5e793a42d6a0a51@mg1.substack.com><mailto:reply+1zsws7&rqag0&&3ca860fd966ac1a0bf575ed48379b6645b7df5edc0903e4c5e79a3a42d6a0a51@mg1.substack.com> Date: May 15, 2023 at 3:55:52 AM To: marie@mjmontpetit.com<mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> <marie@mjmontpetit.com><mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> Subject: The Future of P4, Revisited The P4 Workshop was a couple weeks ago, and as General Chair, I went into it with a fair amount of trepidation. My concern was that Intelβs announcement earlier this year that theyβre cancelling development of the Tofino 3 switching chip would have a chilling effect, not only on the Workshop, but also on the future of P4. That concern has been voiced in several forums β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β β Open in app<https://open.substack.com/pub/systemsapproach/p/the-future-of-p4-one-perspective?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store> or online<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dG9rZW49ZXlKMWMyVnlYMmxrSWpvME5qVTNOakl5TkN3aWNHOXpkRjlwWkNJNk1USXdOakF4TlRreExDSnBZWFFpT2pFMk9EUXhNemN6TkRrc0ltVjRjQ0k2TVRZNE5qY3lPVE0wT1N3aWFYTnpJam9pY0hWaUxUSTRNemswTXlJc0luTjFZaUk2SW5CdmMzUXRjbVZoWTNScGIyNGlmUS50UVhzNmRNSG1GRWdMS0I0dlVHNHVHSlRVU0UwTjdVZEFIMXFzajg2bUNBIiwicCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJzIjoyODM5NDMsImYiOnRydWUsInUiOjQ2NTc2MjI0LCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTAiLCJzdWIiOiJsaW5rLXJlZGlyZWN0In0.6L7-AmSfpdLfVXnKIHzqDqYX9u_tCmRVPJC2N9oP8gU?> The Future of P4, Revisited<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=post-email-title&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> LARRY PETERSON<https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> MAY 15 [Image removed by sender.]<https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> [Image removed by sender.]<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&isFreemail=true&submitLike=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJyZWFjdGlvbiI6IuKdpCIsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMjgzOTQzIiwic3ViIjoicmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.vN6AE7iLQvKkv98V0RaNKEWEX9UdKbdHQdc3nu95Kyg&utm_medium=email> [Image removed by sender.]<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&isFreemail=true&comments=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> [Image removed by sender.]<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> SHARE<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> The P4 workshop has now been chaired by both co-founders of Systems Approach, but this year the P4 landscape has shifted again with Intelβs announcement that Tofino 3, its flagship P4-powered switching chip, would not go ahead. There is much more to P4 than Tofino, however, as we explore in this weekβs newsletter. ________________________________ The P4 Workshop<https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> was a couple weeks ago, and as General Chair, I went into it with a fair amount of trepidation. My concern was that Intelβs announcement<https://substack.com/redirect/a0831b60-fff8-4ded-88c7-f3e6ef7e1e54?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> earlier this year that theyβre cancelling development of the Tofino 3 switching chip would have a chilling effect, not only on the Workshop, but also on the future of P4. That concern has been voiced in several forums, including SIGCOMMβs Slack workspace<https://substack.com/redirect/300dcab9-6056-4c82-9627-1e08ea449b0e?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>, with members of the P4 Advisory Board<https://substack.com/redirect/2fcc130d-cf74-4d68-be4e-d531cbb379b4?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> making reassuring pronouncements in various settings. (See for example, Nick McKeownβs post to the P4 Forum<https://substack.com/redirect/b0f9bc57-686d-4962-8676-c234ebcbd12f?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>, and Nick along with Nate Foster and Jennifer Rexford discussing the future of Network Programmability on The Networking Channel<https://substack.com/redirect/f2016908-8afb-4538-be3d-5d0e6aab0b3c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>). I wonβt try to give a point-by-point replay of what Nick, Nate, and Jen and others have been saying, except to observe that at a high level it can be summarized as follows: Programmable Networks >> P4 Language >> Tofino Switching Chip They point out, for example, that Tofino is just one of many interesting backend targets for P4 programs (SmartNICs<https://substack.com/redirect/f5d04cdb-5915-42ab-9904-a20c38eeab33?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> and IPUs<https://substack.com/redirect/a0ddc803-4ea3-4248-96a1-bdc33f86cd15?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> being the next βbig dealβ) and P4 is one of many tools being used to inject functionality into the end-to-end network path (DPDK and eBPF being two active projects that people are integrating with P4). Ultimately, the value of programmability comes from having visibility and control over the network, and there are many complementary approaches to making that happen. With that background, I do have three takeaways from what turned out to be an interesting and vibrant two days at the P4 Workshop (despite my initial concerns). First, weβre often so focused on P4 as a tool to program the forwarding pipeline that we forget the other half of its value proposition: It also provides a way to specify the behavior of a pipeline (independent of how that pipeline is implemented). We talk about this idea, and the value of being able to auto-generate the Control API, in the P4 chapter of ourSDN Book<https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>. Rob Sherwood made a similar argument<https://substack.com/redirect/2442a19b-b82c-410c-8692-f50b89733875?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> at the P4 Workshop. It is now becoming a reality as companies like Google are starting to use such behavioral definitions as a Hardware Abstraction Layer (see Parveen Patelβs Keynote<https://substack.com/redirect/e656a164-3fef-497b-9628-ffeb700108af?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> at the Workshop). This makes me hopeful that we are rapidly approaching the day when a P4 program (plus the generated P4RT interface) will become the standard way network providers specify their requirements to network vendors, and proposed new features (whether proprietary or standard) will be specified by a P4 program (potentially augmenting the intuition and design rationale presented in an RFC). As an aside, I couldnβt help but notice the similarities between the architecture Parveen described and the way P4 has been used to program the forwarding plane of the 5G Mobile Core<https://substack.com/redirect/64e4cac9-e6fd-4652-8e36-09f50ff1305c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>. Both include a P4-based βabstract forwarding modelβ thatβs independent of the underlying implementation details. Second, it is common to divide forwarding pipelines into βprogrammableβ versus βfixed functionβ, but this glosses over what might be the more important distinction: whether the pipeline is open or closed. Even βfixed functionβ pipelines are increasingly flexibleβitβs just a question of how restrictive the vendor is in who they allow to make changes. This restriction may have the biggest impact on researchers who want to experiment with a new feature (especially ones that do not yet have a proven market), but maybe less so in the commercial world where incentives to make changes are (arguably) well-defined. Using P4 as the βspec languageβ (as I just outlined) has the potential to accelerate the process on the commercial side. On the research side, there is a strong argument in favor of using Tofino 2 to demonstrate the feasibility and value of new ideas (12.8 Tb/s still makes for a credible Proof-of-Concept), and repeating the refrain yet again, P4-as-spec makes for a compelling tech transfer story. If that were to happen, it would be interesting to see how vendors and chip designers adapt to reduce their spec-to-hardware implementation overhead. I would argue that programmable forwarding planes have a time-to-market advantage even for closed solutions. Third, our focus on quantifiable metrics makes it easy to forget about the less quantifiable aspects of programmability. At its core, P4 is a programming language that does a good job of abstracting the essence of a packet forwarding pipeline. It is enormously impressive that a P4 program can be compiled onto a PISA-based<https://substack.com/redirect/01cfb256-04e7-49f8-9600-55e1471955b8?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> switching chip that has the same performance, die area, cost, and power consumption of a fixed-function ASIC (and that equivalency was probably necessary for P4 to be taken seriously), but hitting that quantifiable mark is not sufficient. Well-designed languages are software tools that bring clarity to the intellectual challenge of programming. For me, the biggest βahaβ moment of the Workshop was when Chris Sommers (long-time P4 contributor and new co-Chair of the API Working Group) started rattling off all the functions heβd been involved in writing in P4, and remarking on how natural P4 makes that process. There is certainly room to add new language features as P4 expands its domain to include SmartNICs and IPUsβas Chris and the other WG chairs are now pursuingβbut having an existing target to evolve is a great position to be in. One common thread that weaves its way through these three takeaways is that Intelβs cancellation of the Tofino 3 chip is a potentially helpful forcing function: The P4 community has to demonstrate the value of the language without being buttressed by ever-improving performance numbers that have more to do with 7nm semiconductor technology than anything networking people have done. I saw a lot of evidence that exactly that is happening at last monthβs workshop. The march to programmable networks is inevitable (in my view), and Iβm still optimistic about the role P4 will play a central role. Systems Approach is reader-supported and we are committed to keeping our books and articles open to all. To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. 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- [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
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