Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited
hemant@mnkcg.com Thu, 18 May 2023 18:19 UTC
Return-Path: <hemant@mnkcg.com>
X-Original-To: coin@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: coin@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C735FC151982 for <coin@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 18 May 2023 11:19:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.096
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnkcg.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TzdVGGjWGC_r for <coin@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 18 May 2023 11:19:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from web50.dnchosting.com (web50.dnchosting.com [192.64.150.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0A37C1516F3 for <coin@irtf.org>; Thu, 18 May 2023 11:19:12 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnkcg.com; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Subject:In-Reply-To: References:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=7y5xEbtsxrGfZATHombHSiw0eS1n0EH7uzGXsXiodQU=; b=BCfMyfBqjHvqqp94mR0aWIzPni jPJKty4IIUiBKifsgAI4LbX8n0p554bcLxNxJhJVDnx++BeeCOcxVfl001i9ff00ClqqrC4Hkdlga Oh7bBxJ85IWoO2auvDZJtiqwCm8G+zDVu8pvMd4968uvIFVF3a7KbfTjHL0JNwEY8z2UphyRhDVfS 01KVfz4b/FGm3qWNsn0ui/V6xS2ZCivnRh8xtdXVLIhRNQtrWcGLDG1XTWdaSCIdOv1VMgkgMWkwQ MjWWDFM44dzoN5oNfQv3ro1KP+fp1viIFPrQTxh7yTWZsoFH0FjjSrVu2LCO/1l2MA4hlgEb7Jspn Rwus3HDw==;
Received: from [76.191.34.66] (port=45368 helo=hemantPC) by web50.dnchosting.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from <hemant@mnkcg.com>) id 1pziDX-0000oW-1X; Thu, 18 May 2023 14:19:12 -0400
From: hemant@mnkcg.com
To: 'Haoyu Song' <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>, 'Hesham ElBakoury' <helbakoury@gmail.com>
Cc: ehalep@mojatatu.com, 'Toerless Eckert' <tte@cs.fau.de>, "'Bernier, Daniel'" <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>, 'Marie-Jose Montpetit' <marie@mjmontpetit.com>, 'coin' <coin@irtf.org>, 'coinrg-chairs' <coinrg-chairs@ietf.org>
References: <CAPjWiCT2ipu=yiZFr8hBGF2wy-Y_Dmze=8j+PgeDFyN7KNZR6w@mail.gmail.com> <ZGJl+6YPQarlDSTr@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <034201d98757$bbd87550$33895ff0$@mnkcg.com> <c98c172c-a483-5f69-9bff-dedd4b6a78bb@gmail.com> <044101d9876a$9f0490e0$dd0db2a0$@mnkcg.com> <c9b9a119-27ba-88db-2f08-18e8ff2c6337@gmail.com> <ZGQbyzRW5d1vkgVV@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <9EABD595-552E-4775-B69C-72BE49BD5C93@bell.ca> <00c501d988ea$bbd16f50$33744df0$@mnkcg.com> <095d01d98914$0bba99f0$232fcdd0$@mojatatu.com> <ZGWFQRGI0hmc3g5O@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <001101d989a0$4e180530$ea480f90$@mojatatu.com> <BY3PR13MB47877D31EC3B4511C8095D329A7F9@BY3PR13MB4787.namprd13.prod.outlook.com> <CAFvDQ9ogV5f-Nh9faKxANXV=ORHJVQQPjUH5qAAJb9uvP0KGMA@mail.gmail.com> <BY3PR13MB47876236862ABECD69BF97679A7F9@BY3PR13MB4787.namprd13.prod.outlook.com> <CAFvDQ9q2_5-msxeHYgbZfy3RJB6he3kEQheRe=1qfEdUwP3HxQ@mail.gmail.com> <BY3PR13MB47879D6486069FDA49D6252C9A7F9@BY3PR13MB4787.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
In-Reply-To: <BY3PR13MB47879D6486069FDA49D6252C9A7F9@BY3PR13MB4787.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 14:19:12 -0400
Message-ID: <009f01d989b5$3f0a5d30$bd1f1790$@mnkcg.com>
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Thread-Index: AQIxBKBzfrzN0AW7R0uxmgt8NzLx7gE7vxklAjW3P5gCJVowzwG6owZPAbklKiwBjPTNRAHuP0tRAq/Fk7oBMBPHnALP0N6QAji6kzgB08G1vAMoLp/pAnleMocB0JIIEwIGTK+6rauM2EA=
Content-Language: en-us
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg="SHA1"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0098_01D98993.B77FE3B0"
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web50.dnchosting.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - irtf.org
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mnkcg.com
X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: web50.dnchosting.com: authenticated_id: hemant@mnkcg.com
X-Authenticated-Sender: web50.dnchosting.com: hemant@mnkcg.com
X-Source:
X-Source-Args:
X-Source-Dir:
X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/coin/mqmMbYiSUwzEqmvyLRB0YCdJGFM>
Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited
X-BeenThere: coin@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: "COIN: Computing in the Network" <coin.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/coin>, <mailto:coin-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/coin/>
List-Post: <mailto:coin@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:coin-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/coin>, <mailto:coin-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 18:19:17 -0000
A specific P4 architecture, e.g., PNA, may override the base P4 spec. PNA supports writing table entry by data plane. Using registers in P4 is a bit clunky but state can be maintained. Anyone is welcome to present a better solution to the P4 forums. Hemant From: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 1:56 PM To: Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com> Cc: ehalep@mojatatu.com; Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>; hemant=40mnkcg.com@dmarc.ietf.org <hemant@mnkcg.com>; Bernier, Daniel <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com>; coin <coin@irtf.org>; coinrg-chairs <coinrg-chairs@ietf.org> Subject: RE: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hi Hesham, Please see P4 spec section 6.5.2 for the current “stateful” support. So far the “table” element, which is the most important construct for a P4 program, is not stateful (i.e., dataplane writable) I think it’s a direction to extend P4 for better stateful support (part of my recent research). At least now it’s unnatural and difficult to describe many stateful functions. Haoyu From: Coin <coin-bounces@irtf.org <mailto:coin-bounces@irtf.org> > On Behalf Of Hesham ElBakoury Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 10:42 AM To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com <mailto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com> > Cc: ehalep@mojatatu.com <mailto:ehalep@mojatatu.com> ; Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de> >; hemant=40mnkcg.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:hemant=40mnkcg.com@dmarc.ietf.org> ; Bernier, Daniel <daniel.bernier@bell.ca <mailto:daniel.bernier@bell.ca> >; Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> >; coin <coin@irtf.org <mailto:coin@irtf.org> >; coinrg-chairs <coinrg-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:coinrg-chairs@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hi Haoyu, Actually, P4 supports dataplane-modifiable tables -- see PNA. More generally, the *language* is fully extensible. You can have whatever architecture and state externs you want. So one needs to be careful to separate language (non) limitations from target limitations. Hesham On Thu, May 18, 2023, 10:15 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com <mailto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com> > wrote: Hi Hesham, I said “it’s very limited”. P4 table is only readable (i.e., not writable) by dataplane, so it basically eliminates any dataplane stateful function that need to use tables. The stateful function can only use register arrays but unfortunately registers are local to a pipeline stage so the state update logic must be very simple and can be finish in a single stage. What you said “event” must be something very simple. Use case such as stateful load balancer can’t be implemented by P4. There are some works addressing the issue. FlowBlaze is the most recent one, which needs a new chip architecture but it is still limited to simple stateful functions which can be realized in a single pipeline stage. Haoyu From: Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com <mailto:helbakoury@gmail.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 10:00 AM To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com <mailto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com> > Cc: ehalep@mojatatu.com <mailto:ehalep@mojatatu.com> ; Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de> >; hemant=40mnkcg.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40mnkcg.com@dmarc.ietf.org> ; Bernier, Daniel <daniel.bernier@bell.ca <mailto:daniel.bernier@bell.ca> >; Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> >; coin <coin@irtf.org <mailto:coin@irtf.org> >; coinrg-chairs <coinrg-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:coinrg-chairs@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hi Haoyu, You say: "P4 has very limited support for stateful processing" I am not sure I can agree with your characterization of P4. Perhaps can you elaborate on this. Thanks Hesham On Thu, May 18, 2023, 9:19 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com <mailto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com> > wrote: Interesting discussion. See my comments below [HS] Haoyu > For example, in the multicast drafts i write, we use C-pseudocode > to specify behavior, but we do attempt to implemnt on Tofino in P4. Should we really > use P4 code for the RFC specs... ? (much longer than C Pseudocode). Aka: quite selfish > (but IETF relevant ;-) reason to highlight this point. [EH]: This is an area I'm very interested in. Having a standardized and formal language to describe protocols and behavior can bring a lot of functionality and benefits to the IETF. My initial thinking is that having such a blueprint, the IETF could generate tools to create a reference implementation that can be used for interoperability purposes therefore decreasing time to test and implement protocols and therefore RFC publications. [HS] P4 can only describe dataplane behaviors, so any control plane stuff is out of scope. For dataplane, if it's used to describe header format, it's not better than the "struct" in C. The language uses the match-action table abstraction with an implication of pipeline implementation which may make it cumbersome or even impossible to describe the behavior (e.g., P4 has very limited support for stateful processing). In general, I don't think P4 at its current form can undertake the role for formal protocol specification.
- [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Bernier, Daniel
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited Gianni Antichi
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited Bernier, Daniel
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited Jeff Tantsura
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited Jeff Tantsura
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Bernier, Daniel
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Y. Richard Yang
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited ehalep
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited ehalep
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited ehalep
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- [Coin] The Price for Programmability in the Softw… Hesham ElBakoury