Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited

[[e-mail]]

With disaggregation, control plane stateless features are moving to data plane. SAI cannot keep up with such rapid changes. A base station needs 800G to 1 Tbps for which Trident and Jericho are significant overkill but Octeon 10 is perfect.

 

Sorry, I have no interest in Broadcom because I track only P4-16 hw targets.

 

Hemant

From: Jeff Tantsura <[e-mail]> 
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:17 PM
To: [e-mail]
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <[e-mail]>; Toerless Eckert <[e-mail]>; Marie-Jose Montpetit <[e-mail]>; coin <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited

 

Hemant,

 

I’d think if you state: "in my opinion and/or in my  personal experience" before each statement you have made, your email would read much better and honesty - less arrogant.

Please see inline

 

Cheers,

Jeff





On May 15, 2023, at 4:29 PM, <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> > <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> > wrote:

 

Jeff,

 

Trident nor Jericho matter since these two asics do not support P4-16.  

[jeff] P4 support is by far not the main criteria to choose HW, the fate of BF clearly shows willingness of the industry to pay for it.



Pensando is already listed in my p4-info hardware list.  I like Octeon better because it has vpp,  ai/ml, and other hardware accelerators that Pensando doesn’t have. Vpp is also the most comprehensive data plane on this planet.

[jeff] this is your personal opinion, please be clear about that, there’s no free lunch in fast path, with comprehension come: increased price per bit,  power consumption and complexity in operation (CAPEX and OPEX).



 

SAI is a monster in deployment, but if you want to change/add an API to SAI, the change can take six months.

[jeff] this  is your personal experience, things can be done fast and efficient when needed, in general - this is how open source projects operate and price to pay for a common abstraction (often unfortunately lowest common denominator), however - this can be reused across different silicon vendors and prevents lock in 



With 5G disaggregation, nobody needs high end switches and data plane is changing frequently. P4 works better for 5G and so does a 1 Tbps switch.

[jeff] handwaving.. it might work better for YOU and YOUR use cases, for sake of your statement - show me the “frequent changes” in 5G data plane that would require P4 programmable silicon and can’t be addressed otherwise 



 

Hemant

                                                                                             

From: Coin < <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 5:45 PM
T Hesham

o:  <mailto:hemant=[e-mail]> hemant=[e-mail]
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury < <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]>; Toerless Eckert < <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]>; Marie-Jose Montpetit < <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]>; coin < <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]>;  <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited

 

Hermann,

 

You are comparing apples to oranges (or actually apples to blackberries :))

Trident4 (with 256x 100G SerDes) is a 25T device.

Jericho (2C+) is 14.4T device.

Octeon is a smartNIC/DPU NPU - (400G now, 800G in 2 years?) that should not be compared to the above.

 

There’s a number of DPUs on the market that expose P4 APIs (partial spec + private extensions), non of them can replace (economically) a switch/router ASIC, I believe there a Pensando based Aruba switch (public data) - look at the price and power per bit.

 

P4 - there’s quite some stuff in production that uses P4, Google is also pushing PINS in SONiC/SAI, while in the beginning it was a genius strategy to (up)sell BF, now the scope is somewhat beyond that.

P4 is indeed quite limited as compared to “native” SDKs, with an argument that is provides normalized/common platform/layer to program HW, one might however argue that SAI will eventually be the only winner in this place.

Lack of wide ecosystem and development of compliers towards different HW could eventually be the end of P4 (and potentially push to develop something new).

 

My 0.2

Jeff






On May 15, 2023, at 1:19 PM,  <mailto:hemant=[e-mail]> hemant=[e-mail] wrote:

 

Broadcom NPL is proprietary, and Broadcom develops customer code in NPL for switch. Further Trident/Jericho 2 are 10-12 Tbps asics while Octeon 10 is a 1 Tbps asic. My company’s P4 compiler makes Octeon P4 programmable.

 

Hemant

 

From: Hesham ElBakoury < <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]> 
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 3:28 PM
To:  <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]; 'Toerless Eckert' < <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]>; 'Marie-Jose Montpetit' < <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]>
Cc: 'coin' < <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]>;  <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited

 

How you compare Marvel Octeon 10 with Broadcom Trident and Jericho 2 devices which use NPL ( <https://nplang.org/> https://nplang.org).

Hesham

Toerless,
 
This is the latest network processor which supports use in a switch or nic.
 
 <https://www.marvell.com/content/dam/marvell/en/company/media-kit/octeon-10/marvell-octeon-10-media-deck.pdf> https://www.marvell.com/content/dam/marvell/en/company/media-kit/octeon-10/marvell-octeon-10-media-deck.pdf
 
This is your Tofino replacement with hardware available from Marvell and P4 compiler and tools chain available from my company.
 
Hemant
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Coin  <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 1:04 PM
To: Marie-Jose Montpetit  <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Cc: coin  <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>;  <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited
 
Thanks, Marie-Jose
 
IMHO:
 
- P4 in research short-term:
  Researchers can not do real-world relevant PoC with just BMV2, because it has no constraints.
  All those papers claiming some problem can be solved with P4 and then just use BMV2 are just
  so painful to read/listen-to. We really need a BMV2 with the exact constraints of Tofino,
  and given how Intel is deinvesting from Tofino, maybe they would finally be willing to
  publish those constraints outside of NDA so this can be implemented into BMV2.
 
- SmartNICs:
  P4 is not the right DSL for SmartNICs even if Intel may say so because they want to
  sell SmartNICs and have a brand with P4. SmartNICs are much more flexible, and programming then
  in P4 constraints you. If you don't know anything better, try eBPF. That is AFAIK the
  most widely adopted DSL today to span general purpose CPU (host/router CPU), and SmartNICs.
 
  SmartNICs are a great target FPE for forwarding plane features you do not need on every hop,
  but for example only on few "can be more expensive" hops. WAN interface of site-edge-routers
  (Campus, Home, WAN) for example. But do not try to assume they would be used beyond that
  (on every hop == especially on higher aggregation speed links!).
 
- P4/Coin for higher-than-forwarding-plane features:
  With Tofino disappearing, i think we should caution researchers to NOT invest cycles trying to
  implement solutions on P4 with the explicit purpose of "abusing" Tofino, aka: Program a
  non-forwarding-plane problem solution in P4 in the expectation that a fast P4 exeuction
  product like Tofino would be a great alternative/competition to other execution platforms
  (SmartNIC, CPU,...). We had several of those great ideas presented/shown in Coin, they
  where all about higher than forwarding-plane "compute" problems. But very quickly, with
  Tofino aging, i am sure CPU or SmartNIC slutions for the same problems can easily be
  shown to be more cost-effective.
 
- Long-term forwarding plane research:
  The rejection of the industry (outside Intel) to support P4 for researchers on their router/switch
  forwarding planes (for a decade now) should primarily be a trigger for research funding
  such as from NSF/EU to better enable long-term forwarding plane research. IMHO there
  should simply be a single well funded effort for a Network Programming Element (NPE) equivalent
  to RISC-V. Aka: fully open source architecture and instruction set for a research NPE,
  competitive to industry products. There are lot of other benefits from such an effort
  that could help make that happen.
 
Cheers
    Toerless
 
On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 03:33:42AM -0700, Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote:

Interesting article for out community.
 
mjm
 
Marie-José Montpetit, Ph.D.
 <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]
 
 
 
From: Larry Peterson from Systems Approach 
 <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>  <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply: Larry Peterson from Systems Approach 
<reply+1zsws7&rqag0&&3ca860fd966ac1a0bf575ed48379b6645b7df5edc0903e4c5
 <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]> 
<reply+1zsws7&rqag0&&3ca860fd966ac1a0bf575ed48379b6645b7df5edc0903e4c5
 <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]>
Date: May 15, 2023 at 3:55:52 AM
To:  <mailto:[e-mail]> [e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> 
 <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Subject:  The Future of P4, Revisited
 
The P4 Workshop was a couple weeks ago, and as General Chair, I went 
into it with a fair amount of trepidation. My concern was that Intel’s 
announcement earlier this year that they’re cancelling development of 
the Tofino 3 switching chip would have a chilling effect, not only on 
the Workshop, but also on the future of P4. That concern has been 
voiced in several forums  ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
‌ ‌ ‌ Open in app 
 <https://open.substack.com/pub/systemsapproach/p/the-future-of-p4-one-perspective?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store> <https://open.substack.com/pub/systemsapproach/p/the-future-of-p4-one-
 <https://open.substack.com/pub/systemsapproach/p/the-future-of-p4-one-perspective?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store> perspective?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store>
or online
<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY
2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dG9
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yZWN0In0.6L7-AmSfpdLfVXnKIHzqDqYX9u_tCmRVPJC2N9oP8gU?>
The Future of P4, Revisited
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Larry Peterson
 <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>
May 15
 <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=
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 <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&isFreemail=true&comments=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> jE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI
 <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&isFreemail=true&comments=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> 6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA&ut
 <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&isFreemail=true&comments=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> m_source=substack&utm_medium=email>
 <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY
 <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> 2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXR
 <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> tX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvb
 <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> W1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQ
 <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> sImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1Y
 <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> iI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?
 <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> &utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email>
 
Share
 <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=1206
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 <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFE
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The P4 workshop has now been chaired by both co-founders of Systems 
Approach, but this year the P4 landscape has shifted again with 
Intel’s announcement that Tofino 3, its flagship P4-powered switching 
chip, would not go ahead. There is much more to P4 than Tofino, 
however, as we explore in this week’s newsletter.
------------------------------
 
The P4 Workshop
 <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>
was a couple weeks ago, and as General Chair, I went into it with a 
fair amount of trepidation. My concern was that Intel’s announcement 
 <https://substack.com/redirect/a0831b60-fff8-4ded-88c7-f3e6ef7e1e54?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/a0831b60-fff8-4ded-88c7-f3e6ef7e1e54?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/a0831b60-fff8-4ded-88c7-f3e6ef7e1e54?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>
earlier this year that they’re cancelling development of the Tofino 3 
switching chip would have a chilling effect, not only on the Workshop, 
but also on the future of P4. That concern has been voiced in several 
forums, including SIGCOMM’s Slack workspace 
 <https://substack.com/redirect/300dcab9-6056-4c82-9627-1e08ea449b0e?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/300dcab9-6056-4c82-9627-1e08ea449b0e?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/300dcab9-6056-4c82-9627-1e08ea449b0e?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>,
with members of the P4 Advisory Board
 <https://substack.com/redirect/2fcc130d-cf74-4d68-be4e-d531cbb379b4?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/2fcc130d-cf74-4d68-be4e-d531cbb379b4?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/2fcc130d-cf74-4d68-be4e-d531cbb379b4?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>
making reassuring pronouncements in various settings. (See for 
example, Nick McKeown’s post to the P4 Forum 
 <https://substack.com/redirect/b0f9bc57-686d-4962-8676-c234ebcbd12f?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/b0f9bc57-686d-4962-8676-c234ebcbd12f?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/b0f9bc57-686d-4962-8676-c234ebcbd12f?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>,
and Nick along with Nate Foster and Jennifer Rexford discussing the 
future of Network Programmability on The Networking Channel 
 <https://substack.com/redirect/f2016908-8afb-4538-be3d-5d0e6aab0b3c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/f2016908-8afb-4538-be3d-5d0e6aab0b3c?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/f2016908-8afb-4538-be3d-5d0e6aab0b3c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>
).
 
I won’t try to give a point-by-point replay of what Nick, Nate, and 
Jen and others have been saying, except to observe that at a high 
level it can be summarized as follows:
 
*Programmable Networks  >>  P4 Language  >>  Tofino Switching Chip*
 
They point out, for example, that Tofino is just one of many 
interesting backend targets for P4 programs (SmartNICs 
 <https://substack.com/redirect/f5d04cdb-5915-42ab-9904-a20c38eeab33?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/f5d04cdb-5915-42ab-9904-a20c38eeab33?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/f5d04cdb-5915-42ab-9904-a20c38eeab33?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>
and IPUs
 <https://substack.com/redirect/a0ddc803-4ea3-4248-96a1-bdc33f86cd15?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/a0ddc803-4ea3-4248-96a1-bdc33f86cd15?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/a0ddc803-4ea3-4248-96a1-bdc33f86cd15?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>
being the next “big deal”) and P4 is one of many tools being used to 
inject functionality into the end-to-end network path (DPDK and eBPF 
being two active projects that people are integrating with P4). 
Ultimately, the value of programmability comes from having visibility 
and control over the network, and there are many complementary approaches to making that happen.
With that background, I do have three takeaways from what turned out 
to be an interesting and vibrant two days at the P4 Workshop (despite 
my initial concerns).
 
First, we’re often so focused on P4 as a tool to program the 
forwarding pipeline that we forget the other half of its value 
proposition: It also provides a way to specify the behavior of a 
pipeline (independent of how that pipeline is implemented). We talk 
about this idea, and the value of being able to auto-generate the 
Control API, in the P4 chapter of our SDN Book 
 <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>.
Rob Sherwood made a similar argument
 <https://substack.com/redirect/2442a19b-b82c-410c-8692-f50b89733875?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/2442a19b-b82c-410c-8692-f50b89733875?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/2442a19b-b82c-410c-8692-f50b89733875?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>
at the P4 Workshop. It is now becoming a reality as companies like 
Google are starting to use such behavioral definitions as a Hardware 
Abstraction Layer (see Parveen Patel’s Keynote 
 <https://substack.com/redirect/e656a164-3fef-497b-9628-ffeb700108af?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/e656a164-3fef-497b-9628-ffeb700108af?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/e656a164-3fef-497b-9628-ffeb700108af?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>
at the Workshop). This makes me hopeful that we are rapidly 
approaching the day when a P4 program (plus the generated P4RT 
interface) will become the standard way network providers specify 
their requirements to network vendors, and proposed new features 
(whether proprietary or standard) will be specified by a P4 program 
(potentially augmenting the intuition and design rationale presented in an RFC).
 
*As an aside, I couldn’t help but notice the similarities between the 
architecture Parveen described and the way P4 has been used to program 
the forwarding plane of the 5G Mobile Core 
 <https://substack.com/redirect/64e4cac9-e6fd-4652-8e36-09f50ff1305c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/64e4cac9-e6fd-4652-8e36-09f50ff1305c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>.
Both include a P4-based “abstract forwarding model” that’s independent 
of the underlying implementation details*.
 
Second, it is common to divide forwarding pipelines into “programmable”
versus “fixed function”, but this glosses over what might be the more 
important distinction: whether the pipeline is *open* or *closed*. 
Even “fixed function” pipelines are increasingly flexible–it’s just a 
question of how restrictive the vendor is in who they allow to make 
changes. This restriction may have the biggest impact on researchers 
who want to experiment with a new feature (especially ones that do not 
yet have a proven market), but maybe less so in the commercial world 
where incentives to make changes are (arguably) well-defined. Using P4 
as the “spec language” (as I just outlined) has the potential to 
accelerate the process on the commercial side. On the research side, 
there is a strong argument in favor of using Tofino 2 to demonstrate 
the feasibility and value of new ideas (12.8 Tb/s still makes for a 
credible Proof-of-Concept), and repeating the refrain yet again, 
P4-as-spec makes for a compelling tech transfer story. If that were to 
happen, it would be interesting to see how vendors and chip designers 
adapt to reduce their spec-to-hardware implementation overhead. I 
would argue that programmable forwarding planes have a time-to-market advantage even for closed solutions.
 
Third, our focus on quantifiable metrics makes it easy to forget about 
the less quantifiable aspects of programmability. At its core, P4 is a 
programming language that does a good job of abstracting the essence 
of a packet forwarding pipeline. It is enormously impressive that a P4 
program can be compiled onto a PISA-based 
 <https://substack.com/redirect/01cfb256-04e7-49f8-9600-55e1471955b8?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/01cfb256-04e7-49f8-9600-55e1471955b8?j=
 <https://substack.com/redirect/01cfb256-04e7-49f8-9600-55e1471955b8?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>
switching chip that has the same performance, die area, cost, and 
power consumption of a fixed-function ASIC (and that equivalency was 
probably necessary for P4 to be taken seriously), but hitting that 
quantifiable mark is not sufficient. Well-designed languages are 
software tools that bring clarity to the intellectual challenge of 
programming. For me, the biggest “aha” moment of the Workshop was when 
Chris Sommers (long-time P4 contributor and new co-Chair of the API 
Working Group) started rattling off all the functions he’d been 
involved in writing in P4, and remarking on how natural P4 makes that 
process. There is certainly room to add new language features as P4 
expands its domain to include SmartNICs and IPUs—as Chris and the 
other WG chairs are now pursuing—but having an existing target to evolve is a great position to be in.
 
One common thread that weaves its way through these three takeaways is 
that Intel’s cancellation of the Tofino 3 chip is a potentially 
helpful forcing
function: The P4 community has to demonstrate the value of the 
language without being buttressed by ever-improving performance 
numbers that have more to do with 7nm semiconductor technology than 
anything networking people have done. I saw a lot of evidence that 
exactly that is happening at last month’s workshop. The march to 
programmable networks is inevitable (in my view), and I’m still 
optimistic about the role P4 will play a central role.
 
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We continue to run into people who want to translate our books into 
other languages, and if you are one of them, you should definitely 
reach out to us. The latest entrant is a Portuguese translation 
 <https://substack.com/redirect/e0ad5652-867f-4d2c-8cd6-3fc8b0f8eda0?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/e0ad5652-867f-4d2c-8cd6-3fc8b0f8eda0?j=
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of our Private 5G book by Edmar Candeia Gurjão. You can find other 
translations of our books here 
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