Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited
Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com> Tue, 16 May 2023 18:12 UTC
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Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 11:11:56 -0700
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To: hemant@mnkcg.com, 'Toerless Eckert' <tte@cs.fau.de>, 'Marie-Jose Montpetit' <marie@mjmontpetit.com>
Cc: 'coin' <coin@irtf.org>, coinrg-chairs@ietf.org
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From: Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/coin/PzlZ46He-M8Dbkyk6xr-myJav-E>
Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited
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I checked with Broadcom and I was told that NPI language is not proprietary and is open. However, NPL DIY with toolchain is a licensed product. Broadcom does not have NPL API like P4Runtime API. Hesham On 5/15/2023 1:19 PM, hemant@mnkcg.com wrote: > > Broadcom NPL is proprietary, and Broadcom develops customer code in > NPL for switch. Further Trident/Jericho 2 are 10-12 Tbps asics while > Octeon 10 is a 1 Tbps asic. My company’s P4 compiler makes Octeon P4 > programmable. > > Hemant > > *From:* Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Monday, May 15, 2023 3:28 PM > *To:* hemant@mnkcg.com; 'Toerless Eckert' <tte@cs.fau.de>; 'Marie-Jose > Montpetit' <marie@mjmontpetit.com> > *Cc:* 'coin' <coin@irtf.org>; coinrg-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited > > How you compare Marvel Octeon 10 with Broadcom Trident and Jericho 2 > devices which use NPL (https://nplang.org). > > Hesham > > Toerless, > > This is the latest network processor which supports use in a switch or nic. > > https://www.marvell.com/content/dam/marvell/en/company/media-kit/octeon-10/marvell-octeon-10-media-deck.pdf > > This is your Tofino replacement with hardware available from Marvell and P4 compiler and tools chain available from my company. > > Hemant > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Coin<coin-bounces@irtf.org> <mailto:coin-bounces@irtf.org> On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert > > Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 1:04 PM > > To: Marie-Jose Montpetit<marie@mjmontpetit.com> <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> > > Cc: coin<coin@irtf.org> <mailto:coin@irtf.org>;coinrg-chairs@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited > > Thanks, Marie-Jose > > IMHO: > > - P4 in research short-term: > > Researchers can not do real-world relevant PoC with just BMV2, because it has no constraints. > > All those papers claiming some problem can be solved with P4 and then just use BMV2 are just > > so painful to read/listen-to. We really need a BMV2 with the exact constraints of Tofino, > > and given how Intel is deinvesting from Tofino, maybe they would finally be willing to > > publish those constraints outside of NDA so this can be implemented into BMV2. > > - SmartNICs: > > P4 is not the right DSL for SmartNICs even if Intel may say so because they want to > > sell SmartNICs and have a brand with P4. SmartNICs are much more flexible, and programming then > > in P4 constraints you. If you don't know anything better, try eBPF. That is AFAIK the > > most widely adopted DSL today to span general purpose CPU (host/router CPU), and SmartNICs. > > SmartNICs are a great target FPE for forwarding plane features you do not need on every hop, > > but for example only on few "can be more expensive" hops. WAN interface of site-edge-routers > > (Campus, Home, WAN) for example. But do not try to assume they would be used beyond that > > (on every hop == especially on higher aggregation speed links!). > > - P4/Coin for higher-than-forwarding-plane features: > > With Tofino disappearing, i think we should caution researchers to NOT invest cycles trying to > > implement solutions on P4 with the explicit purpose of "abusing" Tofino, aka: Program a > > non-forwarding-plane problem solution in P4 in the expectation that a fast P4 exeuction > > product like Tofino would be a great alternative/competition to other execution platforms > > (SmartNIC, CPU,...). We had several of those great ideas presented/shown in Coin, they > > where all about higher than forwarding-plane "compute" problems. But very quickly, with > > Tofino aging, i am sure CPU or SmartNIC slutions for the same problems can easily be > > shown to be more cost-effective. > > - Long-term forwarding plane research: > > The rejection of the industry (outside Intel) to support P4 for researchers on their router/switch > > forwarding planes (for a decade now) should primarily be a trigger for research funding > > such as from NSF/EU to better enable long-term forwarding plane research. IMHO there > > should simply be a single well funded effort for a Network Programming Element (NPE) equivalent > > to RISC-V. Aka: fully open source architecture and instruction set for a research NPE, > > competitive to industry products. There are lot of other benefits from such an effort > > that could help make that happen. > > Cheers > > Toerless > > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 03:33:42AM -0700, Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: > > Interesting article for out community. > > mjm > > Marie-José Montpetit, Ph.D. > > marie@mjmontpetit.com > > From: Larry Peterson from Systems Approach > > <systemsapproach@substack.com> <mailto:systemsapproach@substack.com> <systemsapproach@substack.com> <mailto:systemsapproach@substack.com> > > Reply: Larry Peterson from Systems Approach > > <reply+1zsws7&rqag0&&3ca860fd966ac1a0bf575ed48379b6645b7df5edc0903e4c5 > > e79a3a42d6a0a51@mg1.substack.com> > > <reply+1zsws7&rqag0&&3ca860fd966ac1a0bf575ed48379b6645b7df5edc0903e4c5 > > e79a3a42d6a0a51@mg1.substack.com> > > Date: May 15, 2023 at 3:55:52 AM > > To:marie@mjmontpetit.com <marie@mjmontpetit.com> <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> > > <marie@mjmontpetit.com> <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> > > Subject: The Future of P4, Revisited > > The P4 Workshop was a couple weeks ago, and as General Chair, I went > > into it with a fair amount of trepidation. My concern was that Intel’s > > announcement earlier this year that they’re cancelling development of > > the Tofino 3 switching chip would have a chilling effect, not only on > > the Workshop, but also on the future of P4. That concern has been > > voiced in several forums > > > > > > > > > > > > Open in app > > <https://open.substack.com/pub/systemsapproach/p/the-future-of-p4-one- <https://open.substack.com/pub/systemsapproach/p/the-future-of-p4-one-perspective?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store> > > perspective?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store> > <https://open.substack.com/pub/systemsapproach/p/the-future-of-p4-one-perspective?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store> > > or online > > <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dG9rZW49ZXlKMWMyVnlYMmxrSWpvME5qVTNOakl5TkN3aWNHOXpkRjlwWkNJNk1USXdOakF4TlRreExDSnBZWFFpT2pFMk9EUXhNemN6TkRrc0ltVjRjQ0k2TVRZNE5qY3lPVE0wT1N3aWFYTnpJam9pY0hWaUxUSTRNemswTXlJc0luTjFZaUk2SW5CdmMzUXRjbVZoWTNScGIyNGlmUS50UVhzNmRNSG1GRWdMS0I0dlVHNHVHSlRVU0UwTjdVZEFIMXFzajg2bUNBIiwicCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJzIjoyODM5NDMsImYiOnRydWUsInUiOjQ2NTc2MjI0LCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTAiLCJzdWIiOiJsaW5rLXJlZGlyZWN0In0.6L7-AmSfpdLfVXnKIHzqDqYX9u_tCmRVPJC2N9oP8gU?> > > 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<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=post-email-title&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> > > Larry Peterson > > <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > May 15 > > <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > 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<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&isFreemail=true&submitLike=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJyZWFjdGlvbiI6IuKdpCIsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMjgzOTQzIiwic3ViIjoicmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.vN6AE7iLQvKkv98V0RaNKEWEX9UdKbdHQdc3nu95Kyg&utm_medium=email> > > <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=1206 <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&isFreemail=true&comments=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> > > 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<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&isFreemail=true&comments=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> > > <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> > > 2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXR<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> > > tX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvb<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> > > W1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQ<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> > > sImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1Y<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> > > iI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> > > &utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> > <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> > > Share > > <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=1206 <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> > > 01591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=sh<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> > > are&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNC<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> > > wicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> > > OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFE<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> > > gLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> > <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> > > The P4 workshop has now been chaired by both co-founders of Systems > > Approach, but this year the P4 landscape has shifted again with > > Intel’s announcement that Tofino 3, its flagship P4-powered switching > > chip, would not go ahead. There is much more to P4 than Tofino, > > however, as we explore in this week’s newsletter. > > ------------------------------ > > The P4 Workshop > > <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > was a couple weeks ago, and as General Chair, I went into it with a > > fair amount of trepidation. My concern was that Intel’s announcement > > <https://substack.com/redirect/a0831b60-fff8-4ded-88c7-f3e6ef7e1e54?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/a0831b60-fff8-4ded-88c7-f3e6ef7e1e54?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/a0831b60-fff8-4ded-88c7-f3e6ef7e1e54?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > earlier this year that they’re cancelling development of the Tofino 3 > > switching chip would have a chilling effect, not only on the Workshop, > > but also on the future of P4. That concern has been voiced in several > > forums, including SIGCOMM’s Slack workspace > > <https://substack.com/redirect/300dcab9-6056-4c82-9627-1e08ea449b0e?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/300dcab9-6056-4c82-9627-1e08ea449b0e?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/300dcab9-6056-4c82-9627-1e08ea449b0e?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>, > > with members of the P4 Advisory Board > > <https://substack.com/redirect/2fcc130d-cf74-4d68-be4e-d531cbb379b4?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/2fcc130d-cf74-4d68-be4e-d531cbb379b4?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/2fcc130d-cf74-4d68-be4e-d531cbb379b4?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > making reassuring pronouncements in various settings. (See for > > example, Nick McKeown’s post to the P4 Forum > > <https://substack.com/redirect/b0f9bc57-686d-4962-8676-c234ebcbd12f?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/b0f9bc57-686d-4962-8676-c234ebcbd12f?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/b0f9bc57-686d-4962-8676-c234ebcbd12f?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>, > > and Nick along with Nate Foster and Jennifer Rexford discussing the > > future of Network Programmability on The Networking Channel > > <https://substack.com/redirect/f2016908-8afb-4538-be3d-5d0e6aab0b3c?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/f2016908-8afb-4538-be3d-5d0e6aab0b3c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/f2016908-8afb-4538-be3d-5d0e6aab0b3c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > ). > > I won’t try to give a point-by-point replay of what Nick, Nate, and > > Jen and others have been saying, except to observe that at a high > > level it can be summarized as follows: > > *Programmable Networks >> P4 Language >> Tofino Switching Chip* > > They point out, for example, that Tofino is just one of many > > interesting backend targets for P4 programs (SmartNICs > > <https://substack.com/redirect/f5d04cdb-5915-42ab-9904-a20c38eeab33?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/f5d04cdb-5915-42ab-9904-a20c38eeab33?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/f5d04cdb-5915-42ab-9904-a20c38eeab33?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > and IPUs > > <https://substack.com/redirect/a0ddc803-4ea3-4248-96a1-bdc33f86cd15?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/a0ddc803-4ea3-4248-96a1-bdc33f86cd15?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/a0ddc803-4ea3-4248-96a1-bdc33f86cd15?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > being the next “big deal”) and P4 is one of many tools being used to > > inject functionality into the end-to-end network path (DPDK and eBPF > > being two active projects that people are integrating with P4). > > Ultimately, the value of programmability comes from having visibility > > and control over the network, and there are many complementary approaches to making that happen. > > With that background, I do have three takeaways from what turned out > > to be an interesting and vibrant two days at the P4 Workshop (despite > > my initial concerns). > > First, we’re often so focused on P4 as a tool to program the > > forwarding pipeline that we forget the other half of its value > > proposition: It also provides a way to specify the behavior of a > > pipeline (independent of how that pipeline is implemented). We talk > > about this idea, and the value of being able to auto-generate the > > Control API, in the P4 chapter of our SDN Book > > <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>. > > Rob Sherwood made a similar argument > > <https://substack.com/redirect/2442a19b-b82c-410c-8692-f50b89733875?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/2442a19b-b82c-410c-8692-f50b89733875?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/2442a19b-b82c-410c-8692-f50b89733875?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > at the P4 Workshop. It is now becoming a reality as companies like > > Google are starting to use such behavioral definitions as a Hardware > > Abstraction Layer (see Parveen Patel’s Keynote > > <https://substack.com/redirect/e656a164-3fef-497b-9628-ffeb700108af?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/e656a164-3fef-497b-9628-ffeb700108af?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/e656a164-3fef-497b-9628-ffeb700108af?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > at the Workshop). This makes me hopeful that we are rapidly > > approaching the day when a P4 program (plus the generated P4RT > > interface) will become the standard way network providers specify > > their requirements to network vendors, and proposed new features > > (whether proprietary or standard) will be specified by a P4 program > > (potentially augmenting the intuition and design rationale presented in an RFC). > > *As an aside, I couldn’t help but notice the similarities between the > > architecture Parveen described and the way P4 has been used to program > > the forwarding plane of the 5G Mobile Core > > <https://substack.com/redirect/64e4cac9-e6fd-4652-8e36-09f50ff1305c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/64e4cac9-e6fd-4652-8e36-09f50ff1305c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>. > > Both include a P4-based “abstract forwarding model” that’s independent > > of the underlying implementation details*. > > Second, it is common to divide forwarding pipelines into “programmable” > > versus “fixed function”, but this glosses over what might be the more > > important distinction: whether the pipeline is *open* or *closed*. > > Even “fixed function” pipelines are increasingly flexible–it’s just a > > question of how restrictive the vendor is in who they allow to make > > changes. This restriction may have the biggest impact on researchers > > who want to experiment with a new feature (especially ones that do not > > yet have a proven market), but maybe less so in the commercial world > > where incentives to make changes are (arguably) well-defined. Using P4 > > as the “spec language” (as I just outlined) has the potential to > > accelerate the process on the commercial side. On the research side, > > there is a strong argument in favor of using Tofino 2 to demonstrate > > the feasibility and value of new ideas (12.8 Tb/s still makes for a > > credible Proof-of-Concept), and repeating the refrain yet again, > > P4-as-spec makes for a compelling tech transfer story. If that were to > > happen, it would be interesting to see how vendors and chip designers > > adapt to reduce their spec-to-hardware implementation overhead. I > > would argue that programmable forwarding planes have a time-to-market advantage even for closed solutions. > > Third, our focus on quantifiable metrics makes it easy to forget about > > the less quantifiable aspects of programmability. At its core, P4 is a > > programming language that does a good job of abstracting the essence > > of a packet forwarding pipeline. It is enormously impressive that a P4 > > program can be compiled onto a PISA-based > > <https://substack.com/redirect/01cfb256-04e7-49f8-9600-55e1471955b8?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/01cfb256-04e7-49f8-9600-55e1471955b8?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/01cfb256-04e7-49f8-9600-55e1471955b8?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > switching chip that has the same performance, die area, cost, and > > power consumption of a fixed-function ASIC (and that equivalency was > > probably necessary for P4 to be taken seriously), but hitting that > > quantifiable mark is not sufficient. Well-designed languages are > > software tools that bring clarity to the intellectual challenge of > > programming. For me, the biggest “aha” moment of the Workshop was when > > Chris Sommers (long-time P4 contributor and new co-Chair of the API > > Working Group) started rattling off all the functions he’d been > > involved in writing in P4, and remarking on how natural P4 makes that > > process. There is certainly room to add new language features as P4 > > expands its domain to include SmartNICs and IPUs—as Chris and the > > other WG chairs are now pursuing—but having an existing target to evolve is a great position to be in. > > One common thread that weaves its way through these three takeaways is > > that Intel’s cancellation of the Tofino 3 chip is a potentially > > helpful forcing > > function: The P4 community has to demonstrate the value of the > > language without being buttressed by ever-improving performance > > numbers that have more to do with 7nm semiconductor technology than > > anything networking people have done. I saw a lot of evidence that > > exactly that is happening at last month’s workshop. The march to > > programmable networks is inevitable (in my view), and I’m still > > optimistic about the role P4 will play a central role. > > Systems Approach is reader-supported and we are committed to keeping > > our books and articles open to all. 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2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_medium=email&utm_source=subscribe-widget-preamble&utm_content=120601591> > > qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJb<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_medium=email&utm_source=subscribe-widget-preamble&utm_content=120601591> > > Wx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUM<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_medium=email&utm_source=subscribe-widget-preamble&utm_content=120601591> > > tRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_medium=email&utm_source=subscribe-widget-preamble&utm_content=120601591> > > 3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsIml<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_medium=email&utm_source=subscribe-widget-preamble&utm_content=120601591> > > hdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6I<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_medium=email&utm_source=subscribe-widget-preamble&utm_content=120601591> > > mxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_medium=email&utm_source=subscribe-widget-preamble&utm_content=120601591> > > _medium=email&utm_source=subscribe-widget-preamble&utm_content=1206015<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_medium=email&utm_source=subscribe-widget-preamble&utm_content=120601591> > > 91> > <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_medium=email&utm_source=subscribe-widget-preamble&utm_content=120601591> > > ------------------------------ > > We continue to run into people who want to translate our books into > > other languages, and if you are one of them, you should definitely > > reach out to us. The latest entrant is a Portuguese translation > > <https://substack.com/redirect/e0ad5652-867f-4d2c-8cd6-3fc8b0f8eda0?j= <https://substack.com/redirect/e0ad5652-867f-4d2c-8cd6-3fc8b0f8eda0?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > <https://substack.com/redirect/e0ad5652-867f-4d2c-8cd6-3fc8b0f8eda0?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > > of our Private 5G book by Edmar Candeia Gurjão. You can find other > > translations of our books here > > <https://substack.com/redirect/0d0dad50-a3db-42e9-9ad6-95318436a540?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/0d0dad50-a3db-42e9-9ad6-95318436a540?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>. > > You can follow us on Mastodon > > <https://substack.com/redirect/3e6fc5cc-6a89-4a15-97bf-231cf12de9ec?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/3e6fc5cc-6a89-4a15-97bf-231cf12de9ec?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>. > > You're currently a free subscriber to Systems Approach > > <https://substack.com/redirect/3d94c242-4758-4bf3-9e1d-62b5ce3f23ab?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/3d94c242-4758-4bf3-9e1d-62b5ce3f23ab?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>. > > For the full experience, upgrade your subscription. > > <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=postcta> > > 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mxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=postcta> > > _source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=postcta> > 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<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3N1YnNjcmliZT90b2tlbj1leUoxYzJWeVgybGtJam8wTmpVM05qSXlOQ3dpYVdGMElqb3hOamcwTVRNM016UTVMQ0psZUhBaU9qRTJPRFkzTWprek5Ea3NJbWx6Y3lJNkluQjFZaTB5T0RNNU5ETWlMQ0p6ZFdJaU9pSmphR1ZqYTI5MWRDSjkuLW5LYUMtRE1weEw3Smp0bHh4U1I0aEFFLXQ2QWltZ0lENFlFRC1BbWJicyZ1dG1fc291cmNlPXBvc3QiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.lWjTeCLgxCt9OYaegbWWppVXvEzTeJBQs6psa45Oowg?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=postcta> > > 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- [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Bernier, Daniel
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited Gianni Antichi
- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited Bernier, Daniel
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Toerless Eckert
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- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
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- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
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- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
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