Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited
hemant@mnkcg.com Mon, 15 May 2023 22:11 UTC
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From: hemant@mnkcg.com
To: 'Hesham ElBakoury' <helbakoury@gmail.com>
Cc: 'Toerless Eckert' <tte@cs.fau.de>, 'Marie-Jose Montpetit' <marie@mjmontpetit.com>, 'coin' <coin@irtf.org>, 'coinrg-chairs' <coinrg-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited
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Hesham, The reason I have stayed away from including Octeon 10 is my list because I don’t have a reference to a specific switch using Octeon 10 yet. Hemant From: Coin <coin-bounces@irtf.org> On Behalf Of Hesham ElBakoury Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 5:50 PM To: hemant@mnkcg.com Cc: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>; Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com>; coin <coin@irtf.org>; coinrg-chairs <coinrg-chairs@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited I would like to point to a list of programmable devices that Hemant pointed me to, after one of the P4 meetings earlier this year. You can access the list here: https://github.com/hesingh/p4-info He mentioned to me that "the list only includes targets with a P4-16 compiler. It does not include Broadcom devices since they support NPL which uses an older version of P4 in P4-14 with some tweaks." The list need to be updated to include Octean 10. Thanks Hesham On Mon, May 15, 2023, 1:20 PM <hemant@mnkcg.com <mailto:hemant@mnkcg.com> > wrote: Broadcom NPL is proprietary, and Broadcom develops customer code in NPL for switch. Further Trident/Jericho 2 are 10-12 Tbps asics while Octeon 10 is a 1 Tbps asic. My company’s P4 compiler makes Octeon P4 programmable. Hemant From: Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com <mailto:helbakoury@gmail.com> > Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 3:28 PM To: hemant@mnkcg.com <mailto:hemant@mnkcg.com> ; 'Toerless Eckert' <tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de> >; 'Marie-Jose Montpetit' <marie@mjmontpetit.com <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> > Cc: 'coin' <coin@irtf.org <mailto:coin@irtf.org> >; coinrg-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:coinrg-chairs@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited How you compare Marvel Octeon 10 with Broadcom Trident and Jericho 2 devices which use NPL (https://nplang.org). Hesham Toerless, This is the latest network processor which supports use in a switch or nic. https://www.marvell.com/content/dam/marvell/en/company/media-kit/octeon-10/marvell-octeon-10-media-deck.pdf This is your Tofino replacement with hardware available from Marvell and P4 compiler and tools chain available from my company. Hemant -----Original Message----- From: Coin <mailto:coin-bounces@irtf.org> <coin-bounces@irtf.org> On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 1:04 PM To: Marie-Jose Montpetit <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> <marie@mjmontpetit.com> Cc: coin <mailto:coin@irtf.org> <coin@irtf.org>; coinrg-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:coinrg-chairs@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Thanks, Marie-Jose IMHO: - P4 in research short-term: Researchers can not do real-world relevant PoC with just BMV2, because it has no constraints. All those papers claiming some problem can be solved with P4 and then just use BMV2 are just so painful to read/listen-to. We really need a BMV2 with the exact constraints of Tofino, and given how Intel is deinvesting from Tofino, maybe they would finally be willing to publish those constraints outside of NDA so this can be implemented into BMV2. - SmartNICs: P4 is not the right DSL for SmartNICs even if Intel may say so because they want to sell SmartNICs and have a brand with P4. SmartNICs are much more flexible, and programming then in P4 constraints you. If you don't know anything better, try eBPF. That is AFAIK the most widely adopted DSL today to span general purpose CPU (host/router CPU), and SmartNICs. SmartNICs are a great target FPE for forwarding plane features you do not need on every hop, but for example only on few "can be more expensive" hops. WAN interface of site-edge-routers (Campus, Home, WAN) for example. But do not try to assume they would be used beyond that (on every hop == especially on higher aggregation speed links!). - P4/Coin for higher-than-forwarding-plane features: With Tofino disappearing, i think we should caution researchers to NOT invest cycles trying to implement solutions on P4 with the explicit purpose of "abusing" Tofino, aka: Program a non-forwarding-plane problem solution in P4 in the expectation that a fast P4 exeuction product like Tofino would be a great alternative/competition to other execution platforms (SmartNIC, CPU,...). We had several of those great ideas presented/shown in Coin, they where all about higher than forwarding-plane "compute" problems. But very quickly, with Tofino aging, i am sure CPU or SmartNIC slutions for the same problems can easily be shown to be more cost-effective. - Long-term forwarding plane research: The rejection of the industry (outside Intel) to support P4 for researchers on their router/switch forwarding planes (for a decade now) should primarily be a trigger for research funding such as from NSF/EU to better enable long-term forwarding plane research. IMHO there should simply be a single well funded effort for a Network Programming Element (NPE) equivalent to RISC-V. Aka: fully open source architecture and instruction set for a research NPE, competitive to industry products. There are lot of other benefits from such an effort that could help make that happen. Cheers Toerless On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 03:33:42AM -0700, Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: Interesting article for out community. mjm Marie-José Montpetit, Ph.D. marie@mjmontpetit.com <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> From: Larry Peterson from Systems Approach <mailto:systemsapproach@substack.com> <systemsapproach@substack.com> <mailto:systemsapproach@substack.com> <systemsapproach@substack.com> Reply: Larry Peterson from Systems Approach <reply+1zsws7&rqag0&&3ca860fd966ac1a0bf575ed48379b6645b7df5edc0903e4c5 e79a3a42d6a0a51@mg1.substack.com <mailto:e79a3a42d6a0a51@mg1.substack.com> > <reply+1zsws7&rqag0&&3ca860fd966ac1a0bf575ed48379b6645b7df5edc0903e4c5 e79a3a42d6a0a51@mg1.substack.com <mailto:e79a3a42d6a0a51@mg1.substack.com> > Date: May 15, 2023 at 3:55:52 AM To: marie@mjmontpetit.com <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> <marie@mjmontpetit.com> <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com> <marie@mjmontpetit.com> Subject: The Future of P4, Revisited The P4 Workshop was a couple weeks ago, and as General Chair, I went into it with a fair amount of trepidation. My concern was that Intel’s announcement earlier this year that they’re cancelling development of the Tofino 3 switching chip would have a chilling effect, not only on the Workshop, but also on the future of P4. That concern has been voiced in several forums Open in app <https://open.substack.com/pub/systemsapproach/p/the-future-of-p4-one-perspective?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store> <https://open.substack.com/pub/systemsapproach/p/the-future-of-p4-one- perspective?utm_source=email <https://open.substack.com/pub/systemsapproach/p/the-future-of-p4-one-perspective?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store> &redirect=app-store> or online <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY 2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dG9 rZW49ZXlKMWMyVnlYMmxrSWpvME5qVTNOakl5TkN3aWNHOXpkRjlwWkNJNk1USXdOakF4T lRreExDSnBZWFFpT2pFMk9EUXhNemN6TkRrc0ltVjRjQ0k2TVRZNE5qY3lPVE0wT1N3aWF YTnpJam9pY0hWaUxUSTRNemswTXlJc0luTjFZaUk2SW5CdmMzUXRjbVZoWTNScGIyNGlmU S50UVhzNmRNSG1GRWdMS0I0dlVHNHVHSlRVU0UwTjdVZEFIMXFzajg2bUNBIiwicCI6MTI wNjAxNTkxLCJzIjoyODM5NDMsImYiOnRydWUsInUiOjQ2NTc2MjI0LCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxM zczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTAiLCJzdWIiOiJsaW5rLXJlZGl yZWN0In0.6L7-AmSfpdLfVXnKIHzqDqYX9u_tCmRVPJC2N9oP8gU?> The Future of P4, Revisited <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=post-email-title&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=1206 01591 <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=post-email-title&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> &utm_source=post-email-title&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIj o0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6 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<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=post-email-title&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> > Larry Peterson <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > May 15 <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/ff29b5a3-7ea9-4b83-b888-b0c517b2bedd?j= 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<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> W1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQ <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> 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<https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> <https://substack.com/redirect/2/eyJlIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly9zeXN0ZW1zYXBwcm9hY2guc3Vic3RhY2suY29tL3AvdGhlLWZ1dHVyZS1vZi1wNC1vbmUtcGVyc3BlY3RpdmU_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1zdWJzdGFjayZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFjdGlvbj1yZXN0YWNrLWNvbW1lbnQiLCJwIjoxMjA2MDE1OTEsInMiOjI4Mzk0MywiZiI6dHJ1ZSwidSI6NDY1NzYyMjQsImlhdCI6MTY4NDEzNzM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjg2NzI5MzQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMCIsInN1YiI6ImxpbmstcmVkaXJlY3QifQ.hfc7rMzN53dfpysbLYXxmtkw9siB9dPnC71KIavCOTo?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> &utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email> Share 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<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> gLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA <https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=283943&post_id=120601591&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&action=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0NjU3NjIyNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTIwNjAxNTkxLCJpYXQiOjE2ODQxMzczNDksImV4cCI6MTY4NjcyOTM0OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4Mzk0MyIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.tQXs6dMHmFEgLKB4vUG4uGJTUSE0N7UdAH1qsj86mCA> > The P4 workshop has now been chaired by both co-founders of Systems Approach, but this year the P4 landscape has shifted again with Intel’s announcement that Tofino 3, its flagship P4-powered switching chip, would not go ahead. There is much more to P4 than Tofino, however, as we explore in this week’s newsletter. ------------------------------ The P4 Workshop <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > was a couple weeks ago, and as General Chair, I went into it with a fair amount of trepidation. My concern was that Intel’s announcement <https://substack.com/redirect/a0831b60-fff8-4ded-88c7-f3e6ef7e1e54?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/a0831b60-fff8-4ded-88c7-f3e6ef7e1e54?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/a0831b60-fff8-4ded-88c7-f3e6ef7e1e54?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > earlier this year that they’re cancelling development of the Tofino 3 switching chip would have a chilling effect, not only on the Workshop, but also on the future of P4. That concern has been voiced in several forums, including SIGCOMM’s Slack workspace <https://substack.com/redirect/300dcab9-6056-4c82-9627-1e08ea449b0e?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/300dcab9-6056-4c82-9627-1e08ea449b0e?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/300dcab9-6056-4c82-9627-1e08ea449b0e?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> >, with members of the P4 Advisory Board <https://substack.com/redirect/2fcc130d-cf74-4d68-be4e-d531cbb379b4?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/2fcc130d-cf74-4d68-be4e-d531cbb379b4?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/2fcc130d-cf74-4d68-be4e-d531cbb379b4?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > making reassuring pronouncements in various settings. (See for example, Nick McKeown’s post to the P4 Forum <https://substack.com/redirect/b0f9bc57-686d-4962-8676-c234ebcbd12f?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/b0f9bc57-686d-4962-8676-c234ebcbd12f?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/b0f9bc57-686d-4962-8676-c234ebcbd12f?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> >, and Nick along with Nate Foster and Jennifer Rexford discussing the future of Network Programmability on The Networking Channel <https://substack.com/redirect/f2016908-8afb-4538-be3d-5d0e6aab0b3c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/f2016908-8afb-4538-be3d-5d0e6aab0b3c?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/f2016908-8afb-4538-be3d-5d0e6aab0b3c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > ). I won’t try to give a point-by-point replay of what Nick, Nate, and Jen and others have been saying, except to observe that at a high level it can be summarized as follows: *Programmable Networks >> P4 Language >> Tofino Switching Chip* They point out, for example, that Tofino is just one of many interesting backend targets for P4 programs (SmartNICs <https://substack.com/redirect/f5d04cdb-5915-42ab-9904-a20c38eeab33?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/f5d04cdb-5915-42ab-9904-a20c38eeab33?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/f5d04cdb-5915-42ab-9904-a20c38eeab33?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > and IPUs <https://substack.com/redirect/a0ddc803-4ea3-4248-96a1-bdc33f86cd15?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/a0ddc803-4ea3-4248-96a1-bdc33f86cd15?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/a0ddc803-4ea3-4248-96a1-bdc33f86cd15?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > being the next “big deal”) and P4 is one of many tools being used to inject functionality into the end-to-end network path (DPDK and eBPF being two active projects that people are integrating with P4). Ultimately, the value of programmability comes from having visibility and control over the network, and there are many complementary approaches to making that happen. With that background, I do have three takeaways from what turned out to be an interesting and vibrant two days at the P4 Workshop (despite my initial concerns). First, we’re often so focused on P4 as a tool to program the forwarding pipeline that we forget the other half of its value proposition: It also provides a way to specify the behavior of a pipeline (independent of how that pipeline is implemented). We talk about this idea, and the value of being able to auto-generate the Control API, in the P4 chapter of our SDN Book <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/4b87822a-70c6-4ffa-864a-45637b26909c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>. Rob Sherwood made a similar argument <https://substack.com/redirect/2442a19b-b82c-410c-8692-f50b89733875?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/2442a19b-b82c-410c-8692-f50b89733875?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/2442a19b-b82c-410c-8692-f50b89733875?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > at the P4 Workshop. It is now becoming a reality as companies like Google are starting to use such behavioral definitions as a Hardware Abstraction Layer (see Parveen Patel’s Keynote <https://substack.com/redirect/e656a164-3fef-497b-9628-ffeb700108af?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/e656a164-3fef-497b-9628-ffeb700108af?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/e656a164-3fef-497b-9628-ffeb700108af?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > at the Workshop). This makes me hopeful that we are rapidly approaching the day when a P4 program (plus the generated P4RT interface) will become the standard way network providers specify their requirements to network vendors, and proposed new features (whether proprietary or standard) will be specified by a P4 program (potentially augmenting the intuition and design rationale presented in an RFC). *As an aside, I couldn’t help but notice the similarities between the architecture Parveen described and the way P4 has been used to program the forwarding plane of the 5G Mobile Core <https://substack.com/redirect/64e4cac9-e6fd-4652-8e36-09f50ff1305c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/64e4cac9-e6fd-4652-8e36-09f50ff1305c?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0>. Both include a P4-based “abstract forwarding model” that’s independent of the underlying implementation details*. Second, it is common to divide forwarding pipelines into “programmable” versus “fixed function”, but this glosses over what might be the more important distinction: whether the pipeline is *open* or *closed*. Even “fixed function” pipelines are increasingly flexible–it’s just a question of how restrictive the vendor is in who they allow to make changes. This restriction may have the biggest impact on researchers who want to experiment with a new feature (especially ones that do not yet have a proven market), but maybe less so in the commercial world where incentives to make changes are (arguably) well-defined. Using P4 as the “spec language” (as I just outlined) has the potential to accelerate the process on the commercial side. On the research side, there is a strong argument in favor of using Tofino 2 to demonstrate the feasibility and value of new ideas (12.8 Tb/s still makes for a credible Proof-of-Concept), and repeating the refrain yet again, P4-as-spec makes for a compelling tech transfer story. If that were to happen, it would be interesting to see how vendors and chip designers adapt to reduce their spec-to-hardware implementation overhead. I would argue that programmable forwarding planes have a time-to-market advantage even for closed solutions. Third, our focus on quantifiable metrics makes it easy to forget about the less quantifiable aspects of programmability. At its core, P4 is a programming language that does a good job of abstracting the essence of a packet forwarding pipeline. It is enormously impressive that a P4 program can be compiled onto a PISA-based <https://substack.com/redirect/01cfb256-04e7-49f8-9600-55e1471955b8?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> <https://substack.com/redirect/01cfb256-04e7-49f8-9600-55e1471955b8?j= eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0 <https://substack.com/redirect/01cfb256-04e7-49f8-9600-55e1471955b8?j=eyJ1IjoicnFhZzAifQ.CwdsLjQyIcRXfYRGUucLsXfrvggM3KKa9Z1jxtXNWH0> > switching chip that has the same performance, die area, cost, and power consumption of a fixed-function ASIC (and that equivalency was probably necessary for P4 to be taken seriously), but hitting that quantifiable mark is not sufficient. Well-designed languages are software tools that bring clarity to the intellectual challenge of programming. For me, the biggest “aha” moment of the Workshop was when Chris Sommers (long-time P4 contributor and new co-Chair of the API Working Group) started rattling off all the functions he’d been involved in writing in P4, and remarking on how natural P4 makes that process. There is certainly room to add new language features as P4 expands its domain to include SmartNICs and IPUs—as Chris and the other WG chairs are now pursuing—but having an existing target to evolve is a great position to be in. One common thread that weaves its way through these three takeaways is that Intel’s cancellation of the Tofino 3 chip is a potentially helpful forcing function: The P4 community has to demonstrate the value of the language without being buttressed by ever-improving performance numbers that have more to do with 7nm semiconductor technology than anything networking people have done. I saw a lot of evidence that exactly that is happening at last month’s workshop. The march to programmable networks is inevitable (in my view), and I’m still optimistic about the role P4 will play a central role. Systems Approach is reader-supported and we are committed to keeping our books and articles open to all. To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. 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- Re: [Coin] The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
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- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
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- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
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- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
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- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
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- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
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- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited Haoyu Song
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
- Re: [Coin] Fwd: The Future of P4, Revisited hemant
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