[hybi] Fwd: frame length encoding
Brian <theturtle32@gmail.com> Sun, 22 August 2010 20:05 UTC
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Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:06:30 -0700
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From: Brian <theturtle32@gmail.com>
To: Hybi <hybi@ietf.org>
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Subject: [hybi] Fwd: frame length encoding
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> > Just because the JS API today passes the messages totally in RAM, there is > no reason that it can be extended to support a stream-like API if processing > larger messages becomes justified. However, at the framing level, we have > to have something in place such that v1.0 implementations written against > this spec can interoperate with later extensions, so it seems prudent to > make sure the protocol is sufficient for any reasonably forseeable needs. > There were several strong arguments that 32-bits isn't enough, and the next > logical step up is 63/64-bits. > Yes. What is "reasonable" is what I'm getting at. Compression and fragmentation seem reasonable... multiplexing seems like something that should be handled by the subprotocol to me, as most of them won't need it and how to multiplex seems more likely to depend on the subprotocol itself. As for the arguments for 63/64 bits, I don't think they were that strong. I think it's more that fewer people felt like expending the energy to debate them and keep the discussion on track in terms of what this protocol is for, so the edge case people won. If JavaScript-based browser clients are truly thought to be doing something useful with large frames >4GB, then fine, though I doubt it. Even an abuse of WS like video streaming would use a series of shorter frames in practice. If that length requirement was envisioned for usage outside of JS and the browser, then it's not appropriate. > > Personally, I would be perfectly happy with a 32-bit maximum frame length, > and let senders fragment larger messages. However, there were significant > objections (see the discussions link from > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg03399.html for > details) about being required to fragment a message when its size was known, > and the fact that it made "fire and forget" of sending the message contents > with a single sendfile() call impossible (when larger than 4G). Thus, it > seemed likely the only way to gain consensus was to support a maximum frame > length much larger than 32 bits. > > Yes. That whole sendfile() debate, from where I'm sitting, was completely irrelevant to the discussion of a protocol meant to enable realtime bi-directional communications with browser clients. The purpose of this protocol is basically to enable the kinds of communications that Comet attempts to solve by abusing the HTTP protocol, and to open new frontiers to things we haven't considered doing in the browser yet (binary frames etc). Some things are useful and easy to throw in. Some things are just a distraction from the true purpose of the protocol. 64-bit lengths is "easy to throw in" until a discussion of the details consumes a full week+ of the working group's extremely valuable time. At this point, we need to pick something and put a bow on it so it doesn't cost any more than it already has. Brian
- [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding gustav trede
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Willy Tarreau
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Scott Ferguson
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Roderick Baier
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding gustav
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Patrick McManus
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding gustav
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Patrick McManus
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Patrick McManus
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Brian
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Roberto Peon
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Roberto Peon
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding gustav
- [hybi] Fwd: frame length encoding Brian
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding gustav
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] Fwd: frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding gustav
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- [hybi] max frame size, was: frame length encoding Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] max frame size, was: frame length enco… John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] max frame size, was: frame length enco… gustav
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding gustav
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- [hybi] frame length encoding Brian
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Scott Ferguson
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- [hybi] Fwd: frame length encoding Brian
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Scott Ferguson
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] max frame size, was: frame length enco… Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding John Tamplin
- Re: [hybi] max frame size, was: frame length enco… Scott Ferguson
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Brian
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] max frame size, was: frame length enco… Brian
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding gustav
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] frame length encoding Shelby Moore
- Re: [hybi] max frame size, was: frame length enco… Shelby Moore