Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt
Job Snijders <job@ntt.net> Tue, 04 July 2017 09:26 UTC
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Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 11:26:46 +0200
From: Job Snijders <job@ntt.net>
To: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <20170704092646.yzahxshfjc5o66pg@Vurt.local>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt
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On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 10:38:53AM +0200, Gert Doering wrote: > On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 12:31:17AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > If client talks add-paths you send them two paths. You may send them > > more if they wish so. > > > > It is just broken desing to signal failure between nodes to get new > > paths. PIC has proven this long time back. > > > > What this is about is really a new idea of sdn controller with bgp > > and distributed bfd for weak clients. > > > > Now maybe we could understand what are those weak clients who can > > not handle two paths for a given net ? > > What makes you assume that these two paths will *work*? > > IXPs are big (like, 600 nodes), and there might be a partial outage > that kills off everything behind one 100G link in a 4x 100G bundle -> > 100+ remotes are gone. > > Two paths won't do much good then, if both next-hops are in that set. Yes, two paths won't help when faced with catastrophic events (where large clusters of participants of the IXP go offline). But should it? In that case the IXP participant will have to use other means (IP transit, private peering) until the IXP has been repaired (usually done within a few hours?) We already observed that path _diversity_ isn't that great at IXPs in the sense that often there is only a single path towards a prefix: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/idr/qhgG2cCs0UuDHdPRdfDIMs7jeHs I posit that it is safe to assume that other (non-RS) paths will always exist (via transit, other peering), and as such in the trade-off between keeping more state at the RS vs trying to keep the RS lean and mean, the design parameters should be as following: - the main purpose of this draft is to ensure that each RS participant sets up BFD sessions to the other participants of interest, the main purpose is _not_ to ensure there are always paths even if half the IX is on fire. The priority should be quick fault detection, not to "make the best use of the IX under any and all circumstances". - we should work from the assumption that if a client supports draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd, it will also have support for ADD-PATH. If we cannot assume this, I'd like to understand why. - explicitly consider scalability issues. The bigger internet exchanges are struggling with their current route server load, so if IDR adds any computational cost to their list of tasks, it'll need to properly justify that. - The technology facilitate setting up the minimum required set of BFD sessions, not the maximum. Kind regards, Job
- [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt internet-drafts
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Arnold Nipper
- Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-rs-bfd-03.txt Robert Raszuk