Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs
Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Sun, 26 April 2020 18:57 UTC
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Cc: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-smtp@ietf.org, Viktor Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org>
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:26:09 -0700
From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 26 Apr 2020 08:24:07 -0700" <655b8164-7076-00b7-9f97-da8d0855b02a@dcrocker.net>
References: <20200409230011.F039B17637D0@ary.qy> <alpine.OSX.2.22.407.2004091945050.80689@ary.qy> <20200410090430.GA75736@kiel.esmtp.org> <29104A0F-B9ED-4CD7-99B3-5A042375C68B@dukhovni.org> <r7fq4k$1nm5$1@gal.iecc.com> <C1A5FAAA942E0F363CA177C0@PSB> <20200425013624.GV41308@straasha.imrryr.org> <01RK47G4QUK0000058@mauve.mrochek.com> <22e05a3b-bf47-9d83-a340-720ca9a373c4@dcrocker.net> <01RK4LP3NYJK000058@mauve.mrochek.com> <21987cb0-1cc2-e5ce-363f-5bb713333e8e@dcrocker.net> <CCD9771E28F1C5438052BB1A@PSB> <655b8164-7076-00b7-9f97-da8d0855b02a@dcrocker.net>
To: Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-smtp/L6369loezPDc8JRNbVatKt6m27o>
Subject: Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs
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> Also, MDN isn't an SMTP option.(*) It's a user-level feature, unlike > DSN. It's independence of the transport service is why it's usable; the > requirement for protocol support of DSN requests at every SMTP hop is > why it has such poor -- in my experience, non-existence -- utility. And IME almost never work. NOTIFY=SUCCESS, on the other hand... > Success for any bit of end-to-end functionality requires: > Specification + Software + Deployment + Operations + Use Depending on how you define the ends, both DSN in general and NOTIFY=SUCCESS in particular meet handily. > If any one of these do not happen, the functionality fails. If there is > a long-term demonstration of failure, the functionality is deprecated as > a matter of pragmatics. Broadly any effort/expense to support it is > therefore wasted. (Obviously, if there are pockets of end-to-end > support and those pockets matter to the Internet community, then it > hasn't failed; my comments concern 'general' failure.) All this 10,000 feet stuff is starting to make my head spin. Let's please focus on the specific issue that's been identified here, which is that sites are turning off the DSN extension entirely on ingress systems because they believe they have to in order to comply with the specification. So how do we address this issue? Well, we can: (0) Move the entire DSN specification to historic. (1) Revise DSN saying it should only be used within an ADMD. (2) Same as (1), but only the NOTIFY=SUCCESS part. (3) Revise the DSN specification and eliminate NOTIFY=SUCCESS. (4) Change the specification to make it clear you can reject NOTIFY=SUCCESS, and specify a status code for that purpose. (This could be done in a follow-on document.) (5) In addition to (4), deprecate NOTIFY=SUCCESS. (6) In addition to (4), add some sort of indicator to EHLO that NOTIFY=SUCCESS will be rejected. (7) Do nothing. > My comment was meant to note that, in general terms, such a long-term > demonstration of failure for a feature warrants removing it from the > specification. This a) makes the spec cleaner, b) clarifies to the > community that the feature isn't supported, c) saves time/money. Even if we believe that removal is warranted or even necessary, the devil is always in the details. Those details are what concern me, not whether or not making changes is justified by an overarching standards development philosophy. Ned
- [ietf-smtp] SMTP, DSNs, and enhanced replies (was… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] SMTP, DSNs, and enhanced replies … Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] SMTP, DSNs, and enhanced replies … Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] SMTP, DSNs, and enhanced replies … Brandon Long
- Re: [ietf-smtp] SMTP, DSNs, and enhanced replies … John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] SMTP, DSNs, and enhanced replies Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] SMTP, DSNs, and enhanced replies John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] SMTP, DSNs, and enhanced replies … Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] SMTP, DSNs, and enhanced replies Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] SMTP, DSNs, and enhanced replies Jeremy Harris
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Claus Assmann
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Jeremy Harris
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Scott Kitterman
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs John C Klensin
- [ietf-smtp] Variable HELO name, was DSNs Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Variable HELO name, was DSNs Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Variable HELO name, was DSNs John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Valdis Kl ē tnieks
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Scott Kitterman
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Valdis Kl ē tnieks
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Laura Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] DSNs Sam Varshavchik