RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft-klensin-rfc2821bis
"Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> Fri, 20 June 2008 15:42 UTC
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From: Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: 'John C Klensin' <john-ietf@jck.com>, 'Dave Cridland' <dave@cridland.net>
References: <8832006D4D21836CBE6DB469@klensin-us.vbn.inter-touch.net> <485590E2.3080107@gmalcom> <p06250116c47c330c7dd0@[75.145.176.242]<4856DE3A.3090804@gmail.com> <049b01c8d089$6c901ce0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <23618.1213785541.031305@invsysm1> <059901c8d132$d65df170$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <23618.1213788490.265871@invsysm1> <069801c8d185$56f8a350$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <939E706761CC64A67D89C422@p3.JCK.COM>
Subject: RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft-klensin-rfc2821bis
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:54:19 +0100
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Cc: 'Pete Resnick' <presnick@qualcomm.com>, iesg@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org
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John I have read the documents (all of them). I know you have been around a long time and have a good deal of experience but I have been within IETF processes for some 5 years now (or maybe more - seems like an eternity) and am fairly familiar with it. I still come out on the side of the IESG. Sorry but we have to agree to differ on this. Nothing personal but probably due to my ISO experience, I am more for going with standards rather than finding ways around them with MAYs and SHOULDs. If there is a recommendation within a standard IMHO it should be followed. This is just my humble opinion - you are welcome to yours. I don't see what the problem is with following BCP's or with the IESG putting a simple DISCUSS (albeit temporarily blocking) on your document because you have not followed one - whether or not you seem to think it fits. And, yes, I know that is not what your appeal is about but it does play a fairly large part nevertheless. You have taken umbridge at a last minute decision made by the IESG for an aspect that you think is irrelevant to the document as a whole - editorial in otherwords. You state that the IESG has provided a statement as to what they intend to look at and yet you are now arguing the semantics of that statement. I think as the IESG Chair has just stated, you should trust in your top level management. I would add, you should tell them when they have been inconsistent in order that they may learn from the experience and revise their statements as necessary. Wrt the author's intention for publishing BCP32, it is irrelevant unless documented within the BCP itself. We cannot go back to the author for each BCP or RFC and ask what was the intended use. The document, as with any standard, has to stand alone. Best regards Debbie > -----Original Message----- > From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] > Sent: 19 June 2008 19:24 > To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Dave Cridland' > Cc: 'Pete Resnick'; iesg@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on > draft-klensin-rfc2821bis > > > > --On Wednesday, 18 June, 2008 21:53 +0100 Debbie Garside > <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote: > > > Maybe I and a few others thought a BCP was worth something. > > Apparently not. Unlike the authors of these documents I am > not privy > > to the reasoning behind them I am just privy to the > document itself. > > Neither are countless other people who observe IETF BCP's. > Perhaps I > > should not bother recommending BCP 47 (full of MAY's and SHOULD's) > > anymore or indeed contributing to the IETF LTRU process. > It obviously > > is not worth the digital paper it is printed on. > > Debbie, > > Please take the time to read the relevant documents, starting > with the full text of the appeal and then the text of "the BCP" > before making comments like this. RFC 2606/BCP32 very clearly > makes the names available for use where authors find them > useful. It does not require them, specify that they SHOULD > be used, or call for a community consensus process to > determine the cases in which they might or might not be used. > The author of that document has commented on this list that > nothing else, especially an implicit requirement, was > intended. And no one else has been able to cite text in > RFC2606/BCP32 that imposes a > requirement. But you apparently did not read those notes > either (in addition to not reading the document to which you > claim to be "privy"). > > The only published requirement for the use of these names is > in the "ID Checklist" (IDNits). That document is not a BCP. > It is not even an IETF consensus documents. It is an IESG > statement about what the IESG intends to look at. And it says "SHOULD > preferably". Traditionally in the IETF, "SHOULD preferably" > is a WG (or author and editor) decision as to whether there > are grounds for doing something other than what the SHOULD > recommends. For the IESG to block a document on that basis > turns a SHOULD into a "MUST unless we choose to grant an > exception". And, in any event, IDNits is not a BCP of any > flavor - there is no evidence of community consensus for > applying IDNits this way. > > > A sad day for IETF in my book. > > They are always sad days for the IETF when people comment > passionately on documents they haven't read and clearly don't > understand and when they fail to read and consider other > comments in a discussion thread before posting remarks of > their own that could have been informed by those comments. > > john > > > > > _______________________________________________ IETF mailing list IETF@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft-kle… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Lakshminath Dondeti
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eastlake III Donald-LDE008
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eric Gray
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Tony Hansen
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… TSG
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… TSG
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian Dickson
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Simon Josefsson
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… eburger
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… David Kessens
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Fred Baker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Fred Baker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Lakshminath Dondeti
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eastlake III Donald-LDE008
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Spencer Dawkins
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eliot Lear
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… TSG
- example TLH (was: Appeal against IESG blocking DI… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… LB
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Simon Josefsson
- Limits of RFC 2606 (Was: Appeal against IESG bloc… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Bob Hinden
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- Re: Limits of RFC 2606 Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ralph Droms
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Spencer Dawkins
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ned Freed
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ted Hardie
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eliot Lear
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ted Hardie
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… SM
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Randy Presuhn
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John Levine
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Bernard Aboba
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Bernard Aboba
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Julian Reschke
- Measuring IETF and IESG trends (Was: Re: Appeal a… Jari Arkko
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Measuring IETF and IESG trends (Was: Re: Appe… Marshall Eubanks
- Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends (Re:… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Melinda Shore
- RE: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Ross Callon
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Jari Arkko
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … John C Klensin
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… SM
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … John C Klensin
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … SM
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends Frank Ellermann
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends Paul Hoffman
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … SM
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Russ Housley
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Jari Arkko
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Ted Hardie
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Jari Arkko
- RE: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Romascanu, Dan (Dan)