Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft-klensin-rfc2821bis
Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> Wed, 18 June 2008 11:18 UTC
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From: Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
Subject: Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft-klensin-rfc2821bis
References: <8832006D4D21836CBE6DB469@klensin-asus.vbn.inter-touch.net> <485590E2.3080107@gmail.com> <p06250116c47c330c7dd0@[75.145.176.242]> <4856DE3A.3090804@gmail.com> <g36r20$bgq$1@ger.gmane.org> <48575B7E.9030003@ca.afilias.info> <87hcbse7du.fsf@mocca.josefsson.org> <5F8E4A149B8E771FC608EAFB@klensin-asus.vbn.inter-touch.net>
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:19:13 +0200
In-Reply-To: <5F8E4A149B8E771FC608EAFB@klensin-asus.vbn.inter-touch.net> (John C. Klensin's message of "Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:31:35 -0400")
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John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> writes: > Changing the examples (or not) has _never_ been the core > question. I understand that, but I think the reason behind the DISCUSS can lead to a better document. I sympathize with your effort to make the IESG decision process better documented, or at least consistent, and I'll follow the result of this appeal with interest. However, that is, as you seem to agree, not strongly related to the document contents. I think we can have two useful discussions at the same time: one about the appeal/process issue and one about the document content. My thoughts here are more about the latter, as my time and energy to participate in the discussion about the former is too restricted. > As to Brian's suggestion, please consider the following, derived > from RFC3501 and hypothesize that, at some point, an RFC 2606bis > might be created (and go through the consensus process to BCP) > that offers special reserved names for newsgroups or mailing > lists as well as domain names (many of the arguments offered for > using only reserved domain names, including "rude to the > owners", would probably apply to newsgroups and other sorts of > network entities as well) and that included a form of Brian's > suggestion as normative. > > RFC3501 now includes: > >> Example: C: A002 LSUB "#news." "comp.mail.*" >> S: * LSUB () "." #news.comp.mail.mime >> S: * LSUB () "." #news.comp.mail.misc >> S: A002 OK LSUB completed > > Now, suppose, per Brian's suggestion, that were changed to > > Example: C: A002 LSUB "#news." "comp.mail.*" * > S: * LSUB () "." #news.comp.mail.mime > S: * LSUB () "." #news.comp.mail.misc > S: A002 OK LSUB completed > or > > Example: C: A002 LSUB "#news." "comp.mail.*" [Foobar] > S: * LSUB () "." #news.comp.mail.mime > S: * LSUB () "." #news.comp.mail.misc > S: A002 OK LSUB completed > or > > Example: C: A002 LSUB "#news." "comp.mail.*" [1] > S: * LSUB () "." #news.comp.mail.mime > S: * LSUB () "." #news.comp.mail.misc > S: A002 OK LSUB completed > > any of which would be consistent with what I interpret as the > spirit of Brian's suggestion, with the "*", "[Foobar]", or "[1]" > being anchors for a reference or footnote. > > Now _that_, folks, is confusing, since a reasonable reader might > have trouble figuring out whether the footnote/reference anchor > was part of the IMAP syntax and example or not. It would be so > confusing that I'd argue that it involved a substantive issue, > rather than an editorial/stylistic one as Brian Carpenter > suggests sometimes occurs. I'd expect people to notice it > during Last Call and complain, and I'd think an AD would be > entirely justified in asking hard questions and forcing > discussions. > > Whether the examples in 2821bis are like that case simply > because they fail to use 2606 names is something that you should > judge for yourselves. But, because of possibilities that the > examples above illustrate, be careful what you wish for. That is a good and valid point. There is one important part of what Brian Dickson suggested: that the '[*]' (or similar markup) reference is added to "text". Presumably it would only be added to the first occurrence. Adding the reference to examples intended to illustrate the protocol is obviously a silly thing to do. With this elaboration regarding Brian's proposal, I would still be in favor of making his change to the document, unrelated to the outcome of the appeal. The justification is that it results in a better and more complete document. /Simon _______________________________________________ IETF mailing list IETF@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft-kle… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Lakshminath Dondeti
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eastlake III Donald-LDE008
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eric Gray
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Tony Hansen
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… TSG
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… TSG
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian Dickson
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Simon Josefsson
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… eburger
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… David Kessens
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Fred Baker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Fred Baker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Lakshminath Dondeti
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eastlake III Donald-LDE008
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Spencer Dawkins
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eliot Lear
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… TSG
- example TLH (was: Appeal against IESG blocking DI… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… LB
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Simon Josefsson
- Limits of RFC 2606 (Was: Appeal against IESG bloc… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Bob Hinden
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- Re: Limits of RFC 2606 Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ralph Droms
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Spencer Dawkins
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ned Freed
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ted Hardie
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eliot Lear
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ted Hardie
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… SM
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Randy Presuhn
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John Levine
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Bernard Aboba
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Bernard Aboba
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Julian Reschke
- Measuring IETF and IESG trends (Was: Re: Appeal a… Jari Arkko
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Measuring IETF and IESG trends (Was: Re: Appe… Marshall Eubanks
- Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends (Re:… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Melinda Shore
- RE: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Ross Callon
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Jari Arkko
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … John C Klensin
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… SM
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … John C Klensin
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … SM
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends Frank Ellermann
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends Paul Hoffman
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … SM
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Russ Housley
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Jari Arkko
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Ted Hardie
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Jari Arkko
- RE: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Romascanu, Dan (Dan)