Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt
Keith Moore <moore@cs.utk.edu> Thu, 20 July 2000 13:00 UTC
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From: Keith Moore <moore@cs.utk.edu>
To: Peter Deutsch in Mountain View <pdeutsch@EARTHLINK.NET>
cc: Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>, aboba@internaut.com, =?us-ascii?Q?'Patrik Faltstrom'? = <paf@cisco.com>, 'Randy Bush' <randy@psg.com>, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:58:55 EDT." <39766AEF.B13828BA@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:52:49 -0400
Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu
X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org
> The bottom line is, the world isn't waiting for us to tell them the > right way to do what they want and the clever solutions we came up with > as solutions to the networking problems of 1970, or 1980, or 1990 don't > demand that they adopt our proposals for solving their problems of 2000. > We're in serious danger of surrendering to the same elitist posturing > for which we used to vilify the mainframe community. Pity, but we'll > have only ourselves to blame if and when the users pass us by... not that I disagree with you, but this is a fairly content-free statement. yes, we are seriously deluded if we think that the industry will do whatever we say just because we are IETF. but a similar statement could be made of any organization that had been around awhile - including, for instance, (but by no means specifically) your employer, a few other large gorillas, telephants, other standards bodies, etc. in a free market, *anyone* is in danger of becoming irrelevant. the reason I say that your statement is content-free is that it offers no specific criticism of IETF that can be used in a constructive fashion. I find that the work of IETF varies in quality - much of it is quite good, some of it mediocre, a small fraction is highly dubious. Most IETF WGs I've worked with do not operate with an attitude like "people will have to do what we say", but rather "how do we solve this problem". Most of them seem to understand that they have not only to solve the problem, but also to make the solution technically sound, attractive to those who would use it, and easy to deploy. So while I'm not familiar with every area of IETF, I don't see that IETF as a whole is suffering from the problem you describe. If there are specific areas or groups you think are suffering from this problem, you would do better to direct your criticism to those areas or groups, to defend your argument with specific examples, and to provide constructive suggestions for improvement. Keith
- draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Robert G. Ferrell
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Hudson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Hudson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Paul B. Hill
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Richard Shockey
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt vinton g. cerf
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Mark Prior
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bernard Aboba
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brian Lloyd
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Dick St.Peters
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Dick St.Peters
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Peter Johansson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Richard Shockey
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Ian King
- IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? John Stracke
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- correction Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Daniel Senie
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Andrew Partan
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Paul Ferguson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- How many IP addresses? Graham Klyne
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Joe Touch
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- NAT->IPv6 Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-comp… Paul Francis
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brian Lloyd
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: NAT->IPv6 Charles E. Perkins
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Marc Slemko
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Steve Deering
- Re: multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-… John Stracke
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Andrew Partan
- Re: multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-… Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt George Michaelson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Eliot Lear
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brijesh Kumar
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Eliot Lear
- Re: multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-… Paul Francis
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Tim Salo
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt BookIII, Robert
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt vinton g. cerf
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Any comparison Study on MGCP vs H.323, MGCP vs SIP Yixin Zhu
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Patrik Fältström
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt mark.paton
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt aboba
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bob Braden
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brijesh Kumar
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- precedence field and mailing lists Keith Moore
- AOL and standards Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- AOL's view of the Net versus the rest Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- Re: AOL's view of the Net versus the rest Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Eli Sanchez
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Robert G. Ferrell
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt mark.paton
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Peter Deutsch in Mountain View
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke