Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt
Vernon Schryver <vjs@calcite.rhyolite.com> Thu, 13 July 2000 15:50 UTC
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Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:41:55 -0600
From: Vernon Schryver <vjs@calcite.rhyolite.com>
Message-Id: <200007131541.e6DFftK01042@calcite.rhyolite.com>
To: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt
X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org
> From: Keith Moore <moore@cs.utk.edu> > ... > > Other than latency, message size, message rate, and the number of > > participants, what is the difference between an AOL chat room and this > > mailing list as exemplified by this thread? > > why, the participants, of course. > > once people move into chat rooms and make acquaintances there, they > become reluctant to leave. if changing service providers means they > must leave, they're less likely to change service providers even > though they get lousy service. It sounded as if you were making the standard swipe at people who use AOL. If you had been, my rejoinder would have been to quote the first vacation message I got in response to my note. However, I've suddenly realized that the fault for some of the vacation messages rests with the people running this list. Notice that they are not including a "Precedence: bulk" or "Precedence: bulk" lines which tell at least some `vacation` programs to do the obvious. They do include "X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org" In other words, the IETF itself is not above some standads bending.. > ... > still, my point was that the AOL community is more-or-less disjoint > from the community of folks who read IETF documents, and is likely > to remain so. that's not necessarily a bad thing overall, but it > does imply that IETF will have little effect on the decision-making > habits of AOL subscribers. yes. > if AOL subscribers cared about standards > compliance they would have left AOL long ago. You're wrong about that. Remember when AOL didn't have anything to do with the Internet? That the standards for some of the services that AOL sells are written and published by AOL instead of the IETF, ITU, ANSI, or IEEE doesn't make them any less interesting to those buying those services. In other words, if the IETF were to suddenly and not upwardly compatibly change the spelling of "Rctp To" in "To Rcpt" in SMTP and if AOL were to make a similar change in their services, which change would generate more enraged phone calls? Note that I think AOL ought to be sued for false advertising because of the SMTP redirection proxies it interposes in the services that it does claim have something to do with the Internet. Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com
- draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Robert G. Ferrell
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Hudson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Hudson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Paul B. Hill
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Richard Shockey
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt vinton g. cerf
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Mark Prior
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bernard Aboba
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brian Lloyd
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Dick St.Peters
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Dick St.Peters
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Peter Johansson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Richard Shockey
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Ian King
- IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? John Stracke
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- correction Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Daniel Senie
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Andrew Partan
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Paul Ferguson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- How many IP addresses? Graham Klyne
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Joe Touch
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- NAT->IPv6 Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-comp… Paul Francis
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brian Lloyd
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: NAT->IPv6 Charles E. Perkins
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Marc Slemko
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Steve Deering
- Re: multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-… John Stracke
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Andrew Partan
- Re: multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-… Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt George Michaelson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Eliot Lear
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brijesh Kumar
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Eliot Lear
- Re: multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-… Paul Francis
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Tim Salo
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt BookIII, Robert
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt vinton g. cerf
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Any comparison Study on MGCP vs H.323, MGCP vs SIP Yixin Zhu
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Patrik Fältström
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt mark.paton
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt aboba
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bob Braden
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brijesh Kumar
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- precedence field and mailing lists Keith Moore
- AOL and standards Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- AOL's view of the Net versus the rest Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- Re: AOL's view of the Net versus the rest Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Eli Sanchez
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Robert G. Ferrell
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt mark.paton
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Peter Deutsch in Mountain View
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke