RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt
aboba@internaut.com Tue, 11 July 2000 14:40 UTC
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From: aboba@internaut.com
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Reply-To: aboba@internaut.com
To: 'Patrik Faltstrom' <paf@cisco.com>, 'Randy Bush' <randy@psg.com>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 04:21:38 -0700
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>I don't see any problems people making money >on weird NAT-munging-weirdo-webonly-wap things >which they sell to customers "Making money" implies that for every seller there is a willing buyer. For NAT to have progressed from a twinkle-in-the-eye to the near ubiquity that it will have in a few years, there need to be a *lot* of willing buyers. The marketplace rewards those who satisfy a perceived need. If we would prefer that those customers choose another solution (IPv6), then we will need to make it every bit as easy to install and use as the alternative. However, even that may not be enough -- because history tells us that displacing a deeply entrenched competitor (IPv4 + NAT) can generally only be accomplished by exploiting points of inflection. Perhaps Wireless and Infiniband will provide the required inflection points; we will see. >BUT, it is NOT Internet access. I'm not sure that in practice this is a distinction that will ever be universally understood in the marketplace. AOL isn't Internet access either, but it serves more than 25 million users. As with NAT, AOL thrives because it fills a perceived need better than the alternative. >I would not buy it, because I want Internet access. Perhaps it is more instructive to turn the tables and complete the sentence: "I would prefer {insert abomination here} to Internet Access because {insert reason for preferring abomination}" Then, try to complete an alternative sentence: "I would prefer IPv6 to {insert abomination here} because in addition to providing {insert reason for preferring abomination} it can also enable my business to grow faster in ways that IPv4 and {insert abomination here} cannot provide: {insert tangible business benefits of IPv6 here}" The goal is to repeat the exercise until the above sentence convinces large numbers of customers (who may not know what Internet Access is) to part with their money.
- draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Robert G. Ferrell
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Hudson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Hudson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Paul B. Hill
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Richard Shockey
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt vinton g. cerf
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Mark Prior
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bernard Aboba
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brian Lloyd
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Dick St.Peters
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Dick St.Peters
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Peter Johansson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Richard Shockey
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Ian King
- IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Pyda Srisuresh
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? John Stracke
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- correction Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Daniel Senie
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Andrew Partan
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Paul Ferguson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- How many IP addresses? Graham Klyne
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jeffrey Altman
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Joe Touch
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- NAT->IPv6 Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-comp… Paul Francis
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brian Lloyd
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: NAT->IPv6 Charles E. Perkins
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Marc Slemko
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Steve Deering
- Re: multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-… John Stracke
- Re: IPv6: Past mistakes repeated? Andrew Partan
- Re: multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-… Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt George Michaelson
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Leonid Yegoshin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bill Manning
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Eliot Lear
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Sean Doran
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Thomas Narten
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brijesh Kumar
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Matt Holdrege
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Eliot Lear
- Re: multihoming (was Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-… Paul Francis
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Tim Salo
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt David R. Conrad
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steve Deering
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt BookIII, Robert
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt J. Noel Chiappa
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt vinton g. cerf
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Any comparison Study on MGCP vs H.323, MGCP vs SIP Yixin Zhu
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Jon Crowcroft
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Patrik Fältström
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt mark.paton
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Randy Bush
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt aboba
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Bob Braden
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Brijesh Kumar
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Vernon Schryver
- precedence field and mailing lists Keith Moore
- AOL and standards Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Masataka Ohta
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- AOL's view of the Net versus the rest Anthony Atkielski
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- Re: AOL's view of the Net versus the rest Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Eli Sanchez
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Robert G. Ferrell
- RE: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt mark.paton
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Peter Deutsch in Mountain View
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Keith Moore
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt Greg Skinner
- Re: draft-ietf-nat-protocol-complications-02.txt John Stracke