Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Kesteren on 2012-09-24 (public-whatwg-archive@w3.org from September 2012)
"Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com> Mon, 22 October 2012 21:00 UTC
Return-Path: <fielding@gbiv.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD441F0C69 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:00:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -106.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x4-wS2E8CTP9 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcagg.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732C41F0C5C for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A9D2AC075; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=gbiv.com; h=subject :mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=gbiv.com; bh=TSyJ8wM86OG79GSuvxN+tTG3iVU=; b=rHgWN14ZZNaRbAEsdqiSaAK/S1MN /eJmWytCIDdWFJc5L6Sgm5dWaM3L2L9siRd8dl1W/Ov8A7Tx2uj4w6A+aDA0A2gn NsWM6+IQtR+QkDf2bWj+Lz2zIeJwSC9Q1UFO/asykcBYZ5gwQQVawm+STEhftNR+ iQqymoLdqgVmb3Y=
Received: from [192.168.1.84] (99-21-208-82.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net [99.21.208.82]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: fielding@gbiv.com) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 823D92AC06A; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Kesteren on 2012-09-24 (public-whatwg-archive@w3.org from September 2012)
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1210221753010.2471@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:00:14 -0700
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <0DBC8A11-319C-4120-975E-7E40FD5818BF@gbiv.com>
References: <50604C1A.7090901@gmx.de> <5060A964.5060001@stpeter.im> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1210172354500.2478@ps20323.dreamhostps.com> <507F5A7E.6040206@arcanedomain.com> <50856E3C.103@gmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1210221753010.2471@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
To: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283)
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 09:13:03 -0700
Cc: IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>, Noah Mendelsohn <nrm@arcanedomain.com>, mnot@mnot.net, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, URI <uri@w3.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 21:00:18 -0000
On Oct 22, 2012, at 10:55 AM, Ian Hickson wrote: > On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 18/10/2012 02:25, Noah Mendelsohn wrote: >>> On 10/17/2012 7:57 PM, Ian Hickson wrote: >>>> Yeah. Turns out we (the Web standards community) haven't been doing >>>> such a great job of making our specificatiosn match reality.:-( >>> >>> Um, true... but it's also the case that the implementation community >>> hasn't over the years been doing as much as might be best to make >>> reality match the specifications. The new specs we're writing now >>> would like have been a lot thinner and cleaner if they had. >> >> However, I think the concern here is that if certain IETF specs need to >> be updated to match the real world, that work needs to be done in the >> IETF. > > I couldn't agree more! We've been waiting for four years for the URI > working group to get their act together and fix the URL mess. Nothing has > happened. We lost patience and are now doing it ourselves. What you are insisting on defining as a "URL" is the input to the process of making a hypertext reference (the arbitrary string typed into a dialog or placed inside an href/src attribute), whereas the IETF standards define the output of that process as a uniform addressing syntax for use on the Internet by every application that makes use of Web addresses. Browsers implement both the input processing and the output URI standards. HTML must define the input processing, either within the spec or by reference to a new spec. The IETF defined the output standards for what goes on the wire. I would love to have a single standard for hypertext references. However, they are not URLs, they are not implemented consistently across HTML elements, and even within single elements they are not implemented consistently across browsers. It is a worthwhile area to pursue further consistency, but only if you stop referring to them as something they are not and never will be. "" is not a URL. > I'm sure Anne would love nothing more than to be able to work on something > more interesting that this. But at the end of the day, someone has to do > it, and y'all aren't doing it. > > This should not come as a surprise to anyone, the IETF and W3C have been > discussing this matter at last as far back as 2008. Yes, we have been discussing it since 1994. It would be nice if you would take the advice already received and define references in HTML, including the algorithms for converting them into URI references (for DOM and network usage) and IRI references (for display). There is no need for any willful violations, since you aren't even defining the same things. ....Roy
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Julian Reschke
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… SM
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… John C Klensin
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Noah Mendelsohn
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Julian Reschke
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Tim Bray
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Julian Reschke
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Tim Bray
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Tim Bray
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Julian Reschke
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Noah Mendelsohn
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Jan Algermissen
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… James M Snell
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… mike amundsen
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Graham Klyne
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… John Cowan
- websockets in the IETF, was: [whatwg] New URL Sta… Julian Reschke
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ted Hardie
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ted Hardie
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ted Hardie
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Jari Arkko
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: websockets in the IETF, was: [whatwg] New URL… Ian Hickson
- Re: websockets in the IETF, was: [whatwg] New URL… James M Snell
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: websockets in the IETF, was: [whatwg] New URL… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Jan Algermissen
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Jan Algermissen
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Christophe Lauret
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- RE: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Manger, James H
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… David Sheets
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… John Cowan
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… David Sheets
- RE: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- RE: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Manger, James H
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Jan Algermissen
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… John C Klensin
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Melinda Shore
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… David Morris
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… David Sheets
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Roberto Peon