Re: websockets in the IETF, was: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Kesteren on 2012-09-24 (public-whatwg-archive@w3.org from September 2012)
James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> Tue, 23 October 2012 21:32 UTC
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:32:13 -0700
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Subject: Re: websockets in the IETF, was: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Kesteren on 2012-09-24 (public-whatwg-archive@w3.org from September 2012)
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
To: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
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Cc: IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>, Noah Mendelsohn <nrm@arcanedomain.com>, "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com>, Jan Algermissen <jan.algermissen@nordsc.com>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, URI <uri@w3.org>, Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
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It should be quite clear to everyone that the horse is quite dead at this point. Any further beating is entirely unnecessary. So let's wrap it up with this: the whatwg's spec language around urls has the potential to cause confusion among implementers, so please consider reworking that language to avoid such confusion. Period, end of story. On Oct 23, 2012 2:12 PM, "Ian Hickson" <ian@hixie.ch> wrote: > On Tue, 23 Oct 2012, Julian Reschke wrote: > > On 2012-10-23 01:59, Ian Hickson wrote: > > > ... > > > Whether WebSockets is a good idea or not is besides the point. The > point > > > is that the hybi group was not a pleasant experience for me. If I were > to > > > be in a position to do Web Sockets again, I would decline the > opportunity > > > to do it through the IETF. Doing it through the IETF made the work > take a > > > year longer than it would have, made the protocol less secure (the WG > > > removed a number of defense-in-depth features), and made the spec a > mess > > > ... > > > > And, as far as I can tell, fixed a security problem in the original > > design (which caused some UA implementers to actually disable what they > > were shipping at that time): > > <http://w2spconf.com/2011/papers/websocket.pdf> > > The security issue in question was already fixed in the draft by the time > that paper came out. > > > > > (it's a mishmash of different editing styles). Plus, the group _still_ > > > hasn't done multiplexing, which some of the vendors said was a prereq > > > to implementation, something which, prior to the IETF getting > > > involved, was only 3 to 6 months out on the roadmap. ... > > > > Indeed, but then wasn't it you arguing *against* having it in the base > > spec? (see < > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg00239.html>) > > I was arguing against having it in the first version, which I had planned > for Q3 2009 IIRC, and was planning on defining it as an extension protocol > in early 2010 (I even had a strawman ready). The hybi group argued and > argued and argued and argued and then decided to not have it in the first > version, which they ended up doing in Q4 2011, and still haven't done the > extension. So yeah, I stand by my point above. > > -- > Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL > http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. > Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' >
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Julian Reschke
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… SM
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… John C Klensin
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Noah Mendelsohn
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Julian Reschke
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Tim Bray
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Julian Reschke
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Tim Bray
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Tim Bray
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Julian Reschke
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Noah Mendelsohn
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Jan Algermissen
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… James M Snell
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… mike amundsen
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Graham Klyne
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… John Cowan
- websockets in the IETF, was: [whatwg] New URL Sta… Julian Reschke
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ted Hardie
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ted Hardie
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ted Hardie
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Jari Arkko
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: websockets in the IETF, was: [whatwg] New URL… Ian Hickson
- Re: websockets in the IETF, was: [whatwg] New URL… James M Snell
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: websockets in the IETF, was: [whatwg] New URL… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Jan Algermissen
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Jan Algermissen
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Christophe Lauret
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- RE: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Manger, James H
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… David Sheets
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… John Cowan
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… David Sheets
- RE: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- RE: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Manger, James H
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Jan Algermissen
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… John C Klensin
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Melinda Shore
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Ian Hickson
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… David Morris
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… David Sheets
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard from Anne van Keste… Roberto Peon