AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using Inclusive Language in Documentary Standards"
Q Misell <q@as207960.net> Wed, 04 June 2025 10:27 UTC
Return-Path: <q@as207960.net>
X-Original-To: ietf@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: ietf@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C391730A1A6F for <ietf@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 4 Jun 2025 03:27:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.697
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=as207960.net
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id udFwl6EkEUOR for <ietf@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 4 Jun 2025 03:27:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ua1-x92a.google.com (mail-ua1-x92a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2AE830A1A5E for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 4 Jun 2025 03:27:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ua1-x92a.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-87eaaf1f587so193660241.0 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 03:27:18 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=as207960.net; s=google; t=1749032838; x=1749637638; darn=ietf.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=k+0wrBaQxkfRrA4LB49MAiV48KykQuJI4k5np7J8aYY=; b=kN3uMyDgFAap62r298KeHDUS6lrZMXuYbGJh1i9Hk09bp8ZncJWbNCInDrOwAKSRv8 8zpP155OS9VHPNjbgv3Kw1dSfoH+YVMG1Jh1BDQOVw+TTsB72hKaPR1VTfTJtqfLtaU9 6QJ4VgoeSup3aiieBp1wkW5m3oBuRJcQ7CK77+8RN7pcTZIPFrcnxxIX7Ic+JBCbNJWx 4Lk9DghKSxl0BOFAbU2/Yl6ZnOxYcxA8CztO0VhuOhNw3V3dnog16X8zitySs52YaFR1 vzMhw7AYu+f7YUVuVgw2lpPJ5ItKW3oo+1i73DD9Rz1nMlzOc686M4/0xowMJ1Vsz0uw IQeA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1749032838; x=1749637638; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=k+0wrBaQxkfRrA4LB49MAiV48KykQuJI4k5np7J8aYY=; b=eYP83WStYHKCn1g4YyYsNZirzJOna94OZl0dBiHYZYB8BLXqJZ8OPnXXGYrDORSkBq jo7WPTtKUBRPmW407NIGEDri6QSTPbmvv0EN6vxm41Sna47w7A8E/gCLQokpKXsZHw5f 4GbVmqNh+bZMHSXZ1pszG0X6knbmrW5cL8Mba+snwMlsAv/m3pgHSGlTtV/g4eYE/o7x iA3M5KHTXoLfzi5VU4tOv4GZnrLwmeJjmdkV5wlM+z1MT/qg82y4OSUJ/Xh324zeRWK/ aGYXfceuXwyWm6C781Njy1YTDtv4ltURdgIp/fv2O2d8h3EO1/+aXENJI8eShEsc/8Nk 1Mwg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyTf9aC6I+U7U6YHB8qHoomrG+ncY//HPaR8crRzho14y9rZk5V mYY1FC/AtCPLzWQ0T0LKAszjQk8Q1yPMyukrLnalc42dVpHOIlhIOuTtMHUEUK1BrKksi+gxQfW sPydiGrAlTkHRVgpR+m2CdCLURR/6z97/D6u8FFBAGZ48xQ/fFsbX/Nc=
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctenqtJAKZorVGfzifCWg6qpSjorxEPYMyc89OfmT9V3zoOk3Gw9P2s3hpGtAl +6n963xKN6jMqLcaXOI7KiZ0vDNQTGxjPjVH2xoD2APC8O3gMJUtz45/dc70bMJCkvSVl55+uYX b/p6M+ARYvP4cJotbVpeLMbu1LxkVhG8JcgEp5z0SUsg7bpf5Ga3XHcbM3wRwlFK9x
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFxSGxvLonzBaZnM9FqKhvnwOabHRv+tNcCuSR8whuGR4IekTh9xSAfTG1IfxvLF5b4vXYIkhCcg2aKVRiY6wA=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:c49:b0:4e6:f86b:b663 with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-4e746e68e51mr1082559137.20.1749032838088; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 03:27:18 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Q Misell <q@as207960.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2025 12:26:42 +0200
X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFv5PqgckOvzhe2KxreFlkTAx5dENZDjvl2n991UpOtbUPnc9r2zGYP1TNY
Message-ID: <CAMEWqGtvD8ATWhgYjeVwmBjW7ZUtcVccSKLqdin=7W_UL7Dm7A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using Inclusive Language in Documentary Standards"
To: ietf@ietf.org, terminology@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000003df810636bc71ed"
Message-ID-Hash: FCEA2XBQAKHMYCAJRZADE7NOEPEHAK4T
X-Message-ID-Hash: FCEA2XBQAKHMYCAJRZADE7NOEPEHAK4T
X-MailFrom: q@as207960.net
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-ietf.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
List-Id: "IETF-Discussion. This is the most general IETF mailing list, intended for discussion of technical, procedural, operational, and other topics for which no dedicated mailing lists exist." <ietf.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/nPIakKEL2JT7KmPSluo1_XonN5A>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:ietf-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:ietf-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-leave@ietf.org>
Moin all, I currently have an RFC in the AUTH48 stage, and as part of this the RFC editor asks me to review my text for possible issues around inclusive and respectful language, or rather lack thereof. Unfortunately, the accepted reference document to check language against, and to provide guidance on the construction of inclusive text is NIST 8366 "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using Inclusive Language in Documentary Standards". There is nothing wrong with the (former) contents of this document, rather that if one tries to access it nowaday they are presented with a 1 page PDF simply stating that "this paper has been withdrawn to comply with executive order (E.O.) 14151" - in essence, President Trump has such a gripe with DEI that we can no longer write inclusive RFCs. I recognise this situation is not anyone with the IETF community's fault - its a ludicrous situation to be placed in by the political whims of a wannabe authoritarian. But the problem exists, and we should *probably* do something about it. As a starting point, I suggest we adopt the joint inclusive language guidance of the ISO and the IEC [1]; as these are both well respected international standards organisations, this maintains the stated goal of adopting NIST 8366 - in that the language used in the IETF is standardised across industry [2]. I am, of course, open to other suggestions about what to do about this situation; and I particularly encourage the IESG to put forward their suggestions to the community. For now, I will continue editing my RFC based on my understanding of inclusive language, and hope that I do not make any mistakes that a solid reference would've prevented. Q [1]: https://iec.ch/system/files/2024-09/iec_doc_topical_inclusive-terminology-guidance_fa_lr.pdf [2]: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/statement-iesg-iesg-statement-on-inclusive-language-20210511/ ------------------------------ Any statements contained in this email are personal to the author and are not necessarily the statements of the company unless specifically stated. AS207960 Cyfyngedig, having a registered office at 13 Pen-y-lan Terrace, Caerdydd, Cymru, CF23 9EU, trading as Glauca Digital, is a company registered in Wales under № 12417574 <https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/12417574>, LEI 875500FXNCJPAPF3PD10. ICO register №: ZA782876 <https://ico.org.uk/ESDWebPages/Entry/ZA782876>. UK VAT №: GB378323867. EU VAT №: EU372013983. Turkish VAT №: 0861333524. South Korean VAT №: 522-80-03080. AS207960 Ewrop OÜ, having a registered office at Lääne-Viru maakond, Tapa vald, Porkuni küla, Lossi tn 1, 46001, trading as Glauca Digital, is a company registered in Estonia under № 16755226. Estonian VAT №: EE102625532. Glauca Digital and the Glauca logo are registered trademarks in the UK, under № UK00003718474 and № UK00003718468, respectively.
- RE: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … Adrian Farrel
- AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using Incl… Q Misell
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … Brian Carpenter
- RE: [Terminology] AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST S… Julien Maisonneuve (Nokia)
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Terminology] AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST S… Salz, Rich
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A
- Re: [Terminology] AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST S… Jim Fenton
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … Bob Hinden
- Re: [Terminology] AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST S… Jean Mahoney
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … S Moonesamy
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … John C Klensin
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … S Moonesamy
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … John Scudder
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … Jay Daley
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … John Scudder
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … S Moonesamy
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … Benson Muite
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … S Moonesamy
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … S Moonesamy
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … Benson Muite
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … Michael De Roover
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … Benson Muite
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … Michael De Roover
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … S Moonesamy
- Re: AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using … S Moonesamy