Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a new WG: JMAP
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Wed, 09 November 2016 16:42 UTC
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Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2016 11:42:31 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Doug Royer <douglasroyer@gmail.com>
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Cc: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, ietf-smtp@ietf.org, "'imapext@ietf.org'" <imapext@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a new WG: JMAP
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Ned, A few questions about some of your comments (again, just questions); --On Wednesday, November 09, 2016 07:15 -0800 Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: >> The complexity of the requests and replies are the issue. If >> its mostly converting IMAP to JSON, the same problems are >> going to exist. > Yes and no. Part of the problem with IMAP is that it was > designed for a very different sort of client than what we have > now. Which design model are you talking about? It seems to me that the original specs (through and including RFC 1064 and IIR 1176) had only what we now call online mode and was optimized for "kiosk" uses. With the exception of the "walk up to someone else's shared machine" part, that seems very similar to what we have today with the assumption that everything is on the server, the client keeps messages only on a transient basis, and one cannot access messages unless one is online. It seems to me that is not very different from where we are headed now, whether via "dumb MUA" or "MUA implemented on a web interface". It may be more complex than needed because it contains some optimizations are what, by today's standards, are low-bandwidth environments but some of those features also have security advantages (that we haven't talked about very much recently). Now, when we added offline (simulated POP3 on steroids) and disconnected modes with IMAP4, things got more complex. From my personal perspective, disconnected mode (more or less the ancient PCMAIL model) is the only thing that makes sense for people with poor or intermittent connectivity, especially if they need to work offline sometimes and use multiple machines. However, it has never been broadly and well-supported in MUAs (there are, IMO, a few "good enough" MUA implementations but no really good ones) so maybe the marketplace has told us there aren't enough users to count. Now, I've never been a fan of the LISP-like command and response syntax, but that is much more a matter of taste than functionality. > (I note that the problem SMTP is intended to solve hasn't > changed nearly as much.) I agree with you but have heard claims that the multiple relay and alternate destination (mail exhannge) models have outlived their usefulness in today's highly-connected Internet. I don't see things as that highly connected (even looking to the future, SMTP would work much better in the presence of a DTN than, e.g., HTTP[S} and for much the same reason it worked well for delivery servers that were only connected a few hours a week) and I think the robustness those features enable as important. However, there is no disputing that mail transport could be considerably simplified if we allowed only endpoint-to-endpoint connections with no alternatives. Such connections would also permit straightforward feature negotiation. That would be a big help for, e.g., EAI/SMTPUTP8 and similar arrangements and might even help blur the boundary between transport-level and end0t9-end encryption. > Getting rid of historical baggage will definitely simplify things. But that is my question. I don't see IMAP disconnected mode as historical baggage. We've ended up with some redundant ways to do things as a result of newer and more powerful options and commands and the old ways could be cleared out. We could probably make some different choices about data structures and maybe even standardize some things that today just add to the complexity of the options. But I'm not sure how significant those actually would be -- what are you thinking of? > IMAP also uses an unnnecessarily large number of format > variants. Yes. See above. > OTOH, there's absolutely no doubt that there's considerable > intrinisic complexity in the message access space. Especially > given the desire to push more and more of the problem to the > server. Exactly. >,,, > My guestimate is that - and here I'm speaking only of the > message access space - that a HTTPS/JSON approach wins in > terms of effective implementation complexity, although it is > far from clear to me by how much. But, unless we can get rid of IMAP (and some of the functionality, like disconnected mode, that can't obviously be supported over a purely HTTPS/JSON interface) entirely, it seems to me that an HTTPS/JOSN approach is additive, requiring the mail environment to support both it and IMAP for (at least) a very long time. So, while I agree with your guess, I don't see the need to support an additional as a net gain, especially in the short to medium term. john
- [imapext] Fwd: Request to form a new WG: JMAP Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … John C Klensin
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Ned Freed
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … John C Klensin
- Re: [imapext] Fwd: Request to form a new WG: JMAP Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Adrien de Croy
- Re: [imapext] Request to form a new WG: JMAP Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Doug Royer
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Ned Freed
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … John C Klensin
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Doug Royer
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Ned Freed
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … John C Klensin
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Neil Jenkins
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Tony Finch
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Ned Freed
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Ned Freed
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Ted Lemon
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Doug Royer
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Ted Lemon
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Bron Gondwana
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Ned Freed
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Ted Lemon
- [imapext] offline mode, was Re: [ietf-smtp] Fwd: … Tony Finch
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Doug Royer
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Fwd: Request to form a … Bron Gondwana
- [imapext] Further discussions of JMAP Alexey Melnikov
- [imapext] I moved to jmap@ietf.org Doug Royer
- Re: [imapext] [ietf-smtp] Request to form a new W… Jacob Palme
- Re: [imapext] offline mode, was Re: [ietf-smtp] F… Brandon Long