Re: [IPsec] New PAKE Criteria draft posted (def. of gateway)

Raj Singh <> Tue, 30 March 2010 12:43 UTC

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From: Raj Singh <>
To: Yaron Sheffer <>
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Cc: ipsec <>, Paul Hoffman <>
Subject: Re: [IPsec] New PAKE Criteria draft posted (def. of gateway)
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Hi Yaron,

You are saying the same things what i am saying, then i am not able to
understand how its counter example?
The point i want to make here,
"We can emphasize the main use case scenario the draft, but protocol should
have a space for generality".
According to me RFC - 5685 is good example of the above.

Best regards,

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 5:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <>wrote;wrote:

> Hi Raj,
> this in fact is the perfect counter-example: RFC 5685 started out with the
> client-gateway scenario, and when we woke up to see how it can be
> generalized to the symmetric gateway-gateway case, it was too late. Hence
> Sec. 10, which says that the resulting protocol is a very partial solution
> for this case.
> 10.  Use of the Redirect Mechanism between IKEv2 Peers
>   The redirect mechanism described in this document is mainly intended
>   for use in client-gateway scenarios.  However, the mechanism can also
>   be used between any two IKEv2 peers.  But this protocol is
>   asymmetric, meaning that only the original responder can redirect the
>   original initiator to another server.
> I'm not saying that we were right in ignoring this case. I'm saying that
> you can only get the protocol that you want if you define the requirements
> clearly up front.
> Thanks,
>        Yaron
> On 29.3.2010 16:58, Raj Singh wrote:
>> Hi Team,
>> The similar scenarios are beautifully handled by Redirect RFC-5685.
>> The Redirect RFC emphasize on client-gateway terminology, which is
>> typical use of Redirect mechanism in IKEv2 where Gateway redirects
>> client to another less loaded gateway but at the same time RFC is also
>> applicable to router-router scenario when one router decides to off-load
>> all existing IKEv2 sessions to another gateway when it goes down for
>> maintenance etc.
>> I totally agree with Paul.
>> Best regards,
>> Raj
>> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Paul Hoffman <
>> <>> wrote:
>>    <wg-co-chair-hat on>
>>    The disagreement between Dan and Yaron is over wording in the
>>    not-at-all normative criteria draft. This draft is not intended to
>>    become an RFC, and is not binding on the WG. It currently is being
>>    edited by Yaron; soon it will be edited by both Yaron and Dan.
>>     From the active thread the past few days, it seems that Dan
>>    disagrees with Yaron's view that people thinking about the PAKE
>>    primarily as a gateway-to-gateway solution. That's fine: others in
>>    the WG might take one view or the other. I ask that Dan and Yaron
>>    produce an -03 with both views in it. I note that the current WG
>>    charter does not insist that the PAKE we choose be for
>>    gateway-to-gateway, but that it does list "authentication between
>>    two servers or routers" as a motivating scenario, and does not list
>>    remote access as a motivating scenario for the proposed new work.
>>    As WG members consider which criteria are important to them, they
>>    should also consider what scenarios we want to emphasize in the
>>    eventual document. I use the word "emphasize" here because we cannot
>>    prevent implementers and administrators from using the new
>>    authentication mechanism however they want; we have plenty of
>>    experience with IKE and IPsec documents saying "you should use this
>>    in that way" that are merrily ignored by large parts of the market.
>>    --Paul Hoffman, Director
>>    --VPN Consortium
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    IPsec mailing list
>> <>
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