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Re: [IPv6] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Fri, 16 February 2024 19:11 UTC

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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 08:11:01 +1300
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To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/95QE637g-Md90bwsj877ys_uxPc>
Subject: Re: [IPv6] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt
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On 17-Feb-24 03:20, Bob Hinden wrote:
> Brian, Eric,
> 
>> On Feb 15, 2024, at 7:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 16-Feb-24 10:56, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>>> With my IESG hat on and without any relationship to this specific case.
>>> This will probably be challenging for an informational I-D to obsolete a proposed standard I-D.
>>> At the worst case, have 2 documents: one obsoleting the old proposed standard then an informational one. Ugly tough...
>>> But, Brian, I am sure you know the processes even better than I ;-)
>>
>> I'm fairly sure there is no documented rule for this, but a little Python script told me that the only precedent is RFC1574 and RFC1575, which *both* obsoleted the same Proposed Standard.
>>
>> However, I think we can figure out a way round this if we want.
> 
> Perhaps we could have a single standards track document that obsoletes RFC 6874, and also includes the “aspirational” text without using any RFC2119 language.

I was thinking along those lines, but I have a slight preference for leaving one SHOULD in place, thus:

OLD:
A user interface (UI) that allows or requires the user to enter an IPv6 address MUST provide a means for entering a link-local address...

NEW:
A user interface (UI) that allows or requires the user to enter an IPv6 address SHOULD provide a means for entering a link-local address...

    Brian

> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>>
>>     Brian
>>
>>
>>> -éric
>>> On 15/02/2024, 20:42, "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Éric,
>>> Thanks. With your AD hat partially on, do you think that an Informational document can request the IESG to obsolete a Proposed Standard?
>>> If so, I'd personally be happy to make this draft informational and change the RFC2119 keywords to plain English. That would clarify that it is, as David Schinazi says, aspirational.
>>> Regards
>>> Brian
>>> On 15-Feb-24 22:15, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>>>> [Top posting and without any special hat]
>>>>
>>>> Brian and Bob, this is a good idea to move forward and keep this valuable feature of IPv6: LLA
>>>>
>>>> Like David S, I do not think that this is the IETF remit to specify UI though, i.e., an informational document seems more adequate to me (again as individual).
>>>>
>>>> BTW, I often enter URLs without a keyboard with 1- or 2-dimension QR code. Should this be part of the I-D as well ? (more complex than having 2 boxes to enter data) as QR codes are often printed on stickers on IoT devices
>>>>
>>>> Just my 0,01 EUR
>>>>
>>>> -éric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/02/2024, 23:15, "ipv6 on behalf of Brian E Carpenter" <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Were there any other comments on this draft? Are there people who disagree with this new approach? If not, is it appropriate to consider WG adoption already?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Brian Carpenter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 26-Jan-24 14:01, Gyan Mishra wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I read the draft and it looks good and makes sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.verizon.com/> <http://www.verizon.com/&gt;> <http://www.verizon.com/&gt;> <http://www.verizon.com/&amp;gt;&gt;>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Gyan Mishra*
>>>>>
>>>>> /Network Solutions A//rchitect /
>>>>>
>>>>> /Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com> <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>> <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com> <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>>>//
>>>>> /
>>>>>
>>>>> /M 301 502-1347
>>>>>
>>>>> /
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 2:58 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> As the WG may have noticed, draft-ietf-6man-rfc6874bis has been stuck in the IESG since March 2023, despite multiple revisions and discussions with the ADs and other objectors, particularly those in the W3C and browser (WHATWG**) communities.
>>>>>
>>>>> We (Brian and Bob) have reluctantly concluded that the disconnects on this topic between the IETF, the W3C and WHATWG are such that an acceptable compromise cannot be reached.
>>>>>
>>>>> We therefore propose to transform the discussion by withdrawing rfc6874bis and RFC6874, and replacing them by a generic requirement that when a user interface supports the input of IPv6 addresses, it MUST support the input of link-local addresses with interface IDs (a.k.a. zone IDs). How any particular software tool does this is a choice for its implementer.
>>>>>
>>>>> A first draft has just been submitted, please comment. It intentionally makes no reference whatever to browser or other web issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Brian Carpenter
>>>>> Bob Hinden
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt
>>>>> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 11:51:18 -0800
>>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>>
>>>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>>
>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org> <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>> <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org> <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Internet-Draft draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt is now available.
>>>>>
>>>>> Title: Entering IPv6 Zone Identifiers in User Interfaces
>>>>> Authors: Brian Carpenter
>>>>> Robert M. Hinden
>>>>> Name: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt
>>>>> Pages: 7
>>>>> Dates: 2024-01-15
>>>>>
>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>>
>>>>> This document describes how the zone identifier of an IPv6 scoped
>>>>> address, defined in the IPv6 Scoped Address Architecture (RFC 4007),
>>>>> should be entered into a user interface. It obsoletes RFC 6874.
>>>>>
>>>>> Discussion Venue
>>>>>
>>>>> This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Discussion of this document takes place on the 6MAN mailing list
>>>>> (ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org> <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>> <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org> <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>>), which is archived at
>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&amp;gt;&gt;>
>>>>> (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&amp;gt;&gt;>).
>>>>>
>>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt;> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt;> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt;> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&amp;gt;&gt;>
>>>>>
>>>>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&amp;gt;&gt;>
>>>>>
>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at:
>>>>> rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>>>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org> <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org>> <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org> <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org>>>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce&amp;gt;&gt;>
>>>>>
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