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Re: [IPv6] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt

David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com> Fri, 16 February 2024 23:58 UTC

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From: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 15:57:53 -0800
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To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
Cc: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [IPv6] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt
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Apologies for the slight trolling, but this change sounds to me like
switching from MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON'T) to SHOULD CONSIDER [1]. At
least in the case of web browsers, this just won't change implementations.
I wrote more in-depth reasoning as to why that is here [2]. Perhaps we
instead switch to OUGHT TO?

David


[1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6919
[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/ybDJiWTs8mcpNvt2FIjgBsMrF-s/

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 3:36 PM Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On Feb 16, 2024, at 11:11 AM, Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 17-Feb-24 03:20, Bob Hinden wrote:
> >> Brian, Eric,
> >>> On Feb 15, 2024, at 7:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 16-Feb-24 10:56, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
> >>>> With my IESG hat on and without any relationship to this specific
> case.
> >>>> This will probably be challenging for an informational I-D to
> obsolete a proposed standard I-D.
> >>>> At the worst case, have 2 documents: one obsoleting the old proposed
> standard then an informational one. Ugly tough...
> >>>> But, Brian, I am sure you know the processes even better than I ;-)
> >>>
> >>> I'm fairly sure there is no documented rule for this, but a little
> Python script told me that the only precedent is RFC1574 and RFC1575, which
> *both* obsoleted the same Proposed Standard.
> >>>
> >>> However, I think we can figure out a way round this if we want.
> >> Perhaps we could have a single standards track document that obsoletes
> RFC 6874, and also includes the “aspirational” text without using any
> RFC2119 language.
> >
> > I was thinking along those lines, but I have a slight preference for
> leaving one SHOULD in place, thus:
> >
> > OLD:
> > A user interface (UI) that allows or requires the user to enter an IPv6
> address MUST provide a means for entering a link-local address...
> >
> > NEW:
> > A user interface (UI) that allows or requires the user to enter an IPv6
> address SHOULD provide a means for entering a link-local address...
>
> Fine by me.
>
> Bob
>
>
> >
> >   Brian
> >
> >> Bob
> >>>
> >>>    Brian
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -éric
> >>>> On 15/02/2024, 20:42, "Brian E Carpenter" <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>> Éric,
> >>>> Thanks. With your AD hat partially on, do you think that an
> Informational document can request the IESG to obsolete a Proposed Standard?
> >>>> If so, I'd personally be happy to make this draft informational and
> change the RFC2119 keywords to plain English. That would clarify that it
> is, as David Schinazi says, aspirational.
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> Brian
> >>>> On 15-Feb-24 22:15, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
> >>>>> [Top posting and without any special hat]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Brian and Bob, this is a good idea to move forward and keep this
> valuable feature of IPv6: LLA
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Like David S, I do not think that this is the IETF remit to specify
> UI though, i.e., an informational document seems more adequate to me (again
> as individual).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> BTW, I often enter URLs without a keyboard with 1- or 2-dimension QR
> code. Should this be part of the I-D as well ? (more complex than having 2
> boxes to enter data) as QR codes are often printed on stickers on IoT
> devices
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just my 0,01 EUR
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -éric
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 12/02/2024, 23:15, "ipv6 on behalf of Brian E Carpenter" <
> ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:
> ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> <mailto:
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Were there any other comments on this draft? Are there people who
> disagree with this new approach? If not, is it appropriate to consider WG
> adoption already?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>> Brian Carpenter
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 26-Jan-24 14:01, Gyan Mishra wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I read the draft and it looks good and makes sense.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <http://www.verizon.com/> <http://www.verizon.com/&gt;> <
> http://www.verizon.com/&gt;> <http://www.verizon.com/&amp;gt;&gt;>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *Gyan Mishra*
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> /Network Solutions A//rchitect /
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> /Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>
> <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>>
> <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>
> <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>>>//
> >>>>>> /
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> /M 301 502-1347
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> /
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 2:58 PM Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> <mailto:
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> <mailto:
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> <mailto:
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As the WG may have noticed, draft-ietf-6man-rfc6874bis has been
> stuck in the IESG since March 2023, despite multiple revisions and
> discussions with the ADs and other objectors, particularly those in the W3C
> and browser (WHATWG**) communities.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We (Brian and Bob) have reluctantly concluded that the disconnects
> on this topic between the IETF, the W3C and WHATWG are such that an
> acceptable compromise cannot be reached.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We therefore propose to transform the discussion by withdrawing
> rfc6874bis and RFC6874, and replacing them by a generic requirement that
> when a user interface supports the input of IPv6 addresses, it MUST support
> the input of link-local addresses with interface IDs (a.k.a. zone IDs). How
> any particular software tool does this is a choice for its implementer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A first draft has just been submitted, please comment. It
> intentionally makes no reference whatever to browser or other web issues.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>> Brian Carpenter
> >>>>>> Bob Hinden
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> >>>>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt
> >>>>>> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 11:51:18 -0800
> >>>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>
> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>>
> >>>>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>
> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>>
> >>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org> <mailto:
> i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>> <mailto:
> i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org> <mailto:
> i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Internet-Draft draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt is now available.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Title: Entering IPv6 Zone Identifiers in User Interfaces
> >>>>>> Authors: Brian Carpenter
> >>>>>> Robert M. Hinden
> >>>>>> Name: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt
> >>>>>> Pages: 7
> >>>>>> Dates: 2024-01-15
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Abstract:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This document describes how the zone identifier of an IPv6 scoped
> >>>>>> address, defined in the IPv6 Scoped Address Architecture (RFC 4007),
> >>>>>> should be entered into a user interface. It obsoletes RFC 6874.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Discussion Venue
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Discussion of this document takes place on the 6MAN mailing list
> >>>>>> (ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org> <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
> <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>> <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
> <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>>), which is archived at
> >>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&amp;gt;&gt;>
> >>>>>> (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&amp;gt;&gt;>).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this Internet-Draft is:
> >>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/ <
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/> <
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/> <
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt;> <
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/> <
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt;> <
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt;> <
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&amp;gt;&gt
> ;>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There is also an HTML version available at:
> >>>>>>
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html <
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html> <
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html> <
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt;>
> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html> <
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt;>
> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt;>
> <
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&amp;gt;&gt
> ;>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at:
> >>>>>> rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>

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