Re: [IPv6] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt

[Brian E Carpenter <[e-mail]>]

It does. It's a marker, and it may be useful to some of our successors.

Incidentally, I just found an instance of an Informational (RFC 6248) obsoleting a BCP (RFC 4148). So it seems the IESG is OK with this, but I'd prefer standards track.

Regards
    Brian

On 17-Feb-24 12:57, David Schinazi wrote:
> Apologies for the slight trolling, but this change sounds to me like switching from MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON'T) to SHOULD CONSIDER [1]. At least in the case of web browsers, this just won't change implementations. I wrote more in-depth reasoning as to why that is here [2]. Perhaps we instead switch to OUGHT TO?
> 
> David
> 
> 
> [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6919 <https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6919>
> [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/ybDJiWTs8mcpNvt2FIjgBsMrF-s/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/ybDJiWTs8mcpNvt2FIjgBsMrF-s/>
> 
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 3:36 PM Bob Hinden <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>      > On Feb 16, 2024, at 11:11 AM, Brian E Carpenter <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>      >
>      > On 17-Feb-24 03:20, Bob Hinden wrote:
>      >> Brian, Eric,
>      >>> On Feb 15, 2024, at 7:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>      >>>
>      >>> On 16-Feb-24 10:56, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>      >>>> With my IESG hat on and without any relationship to this specific case.
>      >>>> This will probably be challenging for an informational I-D to obsolete a proposed standard I-D.
>      >>>> At the worst case, have 2 documents: one obsoleting the old proposed standard then an informational one. Ugly tough...
>      >>>> But, Brian, I am sure you know the processes even better than I ;-)
>      >>>
>      >>> I'm fairly sure there is no documented rule for this, but a little Python script told me that the only precedent is RFC1574 and RFC1575, which *both* obsoleted the same Proposed Standard.
>      >>>
>      >>> However, I think we can figure out a way round this if we want.
>      >> Perhaps we could have a single standards track document that obsoletes RFC 6874, and also includes the “aspirational” text without using any RFC2119 language.
>      >
>      > I was thinking along those lines, but I have a slight preference for leaving one SHOULD in place, thus:
>      >
>      > OLD:
>      > A user interface (UI) that allows or requires the user to enter an IPv6 address MUST provide a means for entering a link-local address...
>      >
>      > NEW:
>      > A user interface (UI) that allows or requires the user to enter an IPv6 address SHOULD provide a means for entering a link-local address...
> 
>     Fine by me.
> 
>     Bob
> 
> 
>      >
>      >   Brian
>      >
>      >> Bob
>      >>>
>      >>>    Brian
>      >>>
>      >>>
>      >>>> -éric
>      >>>> On 15/02/2024, 20:42, "Brian E Carpenter" <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>> wrote:
>      >>>> Éric,
>      >>>> Thanks. With your AD hat partially on, do you think that an Informational document can request the IESG to obsolete a Proposed Standard?
>      >>>> If so, I'd personally be happy to make this draft informational and change the RFC2119 keywords to plain English. That would clarify that it is, as David Schinazi says, aspirational.
>      >>>> Regards
>      >>>> Brian
>      >>>> On 15-Feb-24 22:15, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>      >>>>> [Top posting and without any special hat]
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> Brian and Bob, this is a good idea to move forward and keep this valuable feature of IPv6: LLA
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> Like David S, I do not think that this is the IETF remit to specify UI though, i.e., an informational document seems more adequate to me (again as individual).
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> BTW, I often enter URLs without a keyboard with 1- or 2-dimension QR code. Should this be part of the I-D as well ? (more complex than having 2 boxes to enter data) as QR codes are often printed on stickers on IoT devices
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> Just my 0,01 EUR
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> -éric
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> On 12/02/2024, 23:15, "ipv6 on behalf of Brian E Carpenter" <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>> on behalf of [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>> wrote:
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> Were there any other comments on this draft? Are there people who disagree with this new approach? If not, is it appropriate to consider WG adoption already?
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> Regards
>      >>>>> Brian Carpenter
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> On 26-Jan-24 14:01, Gyan Mishra wrote:
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> I read the draft and it looks good and makes sense.
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> Thanks
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> <http://www.verizon.com/ <http://www.verizon.com/>> <http://www.verizon.com/&gt <http://www.verizon.com/&gt>;> <http://www.verizon.com/&gt <http://www.verizon.com/&gt>;> <http://www.verizon.com/&amp;gt;&gt <http://www.verizon.com/&amp;gt;&gt>;>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> *Gyan Mishra*
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> /Network Solutions A//rchitect /
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> /Email [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>//
>      >>>>>> /
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> /M 301 502-1347
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> /
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 2:58 PM Brian E Carpenter <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>> wrote:
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> Hi,
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> As the WG may have noticed, draft-ietf-6man-rfc6874bis has been stuck in the IESG since March 2023, despite multiple revisions and discussions with the ADs and other objectors, particularly those in the W3C and browser (WHATWG**) communities.
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> We (Brian and Bob) have reluctantly concluded that the disconnects on this topic between the IETF, the W3C and WHATWG are such that an acceptable compromise cannot be reached.
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> We therefore propose to transform the discussion by withdrawing rfc6874bis and RFC6874, and replacing them by a generic requirement that when a user interface supports the input of IPv6 addresses, it MUST support the input of link-local addresses with interface IDs (a.k.a. zone IDs). How any particular software tool does this is a choice for its implementer.
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> A first draft has just been submitted, please comment. It intentionally makes no reference whatever to browser or other web issues.
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> Regards
>      >>>>>> Brian Carpenter
>      >>>>>> Bob Hinden
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>      >>>>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt
>      >>>>>> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 11:51:18 -0800
>      >>>>>> From: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>
>      >>>>>> Reply-To: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>
>      >>>>>> To: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> Internet-Draft draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt is now available.
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> Title: Entering IPv6 Zone Identifiers in User Interfaces
>      >>>>>> Authors: Brian Carpenter
>      >>>>>> Robert M. Hinden
>      >>>>>> Name: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt
>      >>>>>> Pages: 7
>      >>>>>> Dates: 2024-01-15
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> Abstract:
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> This document describes how the zone identifier of an IPv6 scoped
>      >>>>>> address, defined in the IPv6 Scoped Address Architecture (RFC 4007),
>      >>>>>> should be entered into a user interface. It obsoletes RFC 6874.
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> Discussion Venue
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC.
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> Discussion of this document takes place on the 6MAN mailing list
>      >>>>>> ([e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>), which is archived at
>      >>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt>;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt>;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt>;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&amp;gt;&gt <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&amp;gt;&gt>;>
>      >>>>>> (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt>;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt>;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt>;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&amp;gt;&gt <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&amp;gt;&gt>;>).
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this Internet-Draft is:
>      >>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt>;> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt>;> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt>;>
>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&amp;gt;&gt <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&amp;gt;&gt>;>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>      >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html>> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html>> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt>;> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html>> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt>;> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt
>     <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt>;> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&amp;gt;&gt <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&amp;gt;&gt>;>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at:
>      >>>>>> rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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