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Re: [IPv6] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt

Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> Fri, 16 February 2024 23:35 UTC

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From: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 15:33:26 -0800
Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>
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To: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [IPv6] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt
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> On Feb 16, 2024, at 11:11 AM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 17-Feb-24 03:20, Bob Hinden wrote:
>> Brian, Eric,
>>> On Feb 15, 2024, at 7:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 16-Feb-24 10:56, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>>>> With my IESG hat on and without any relationship to this specific case.
>>>> This will probably be challenging for an informational I-D to obsolete a proposed standard I-D.
>>>> At the worst case, have 2 documents: one obsoleting the old proposed standard then an informational one. Ugly tough...
>>>> But, Brian, I am sure you know the processes even better than I ;-)
>>> 
>>> I'm fairly sure there is no documented rule for this, but a little Python script told me that the only precedent is RFC1574 and RFC1575, which *both* obsoleted the same Proposed Standard.
>>> 
>>> However, I think we can figure out a way round this if we want.
>> Perhaps we could have a single standards track document that obsoletes RFC 6874, and also includes the “aspirational” text without using any RFC2119 language.
> 
> I was thinking along those lines, but I have a slight preference for leaving one SHOULD in place, thus:
> 
> OLD:
> A user interface (UI) that allows or requires the user to enter an IPv6 address MUST provide a means for entering a link-local address...
> 
> NEW:
> A user interface (UI) that allows or requires the user to enter an IPv6 address SHOULD provide a means for entering a link-local address...

Fine by me.

Bob


> 
>   Brian
> 
>> Bob
>>> 
>>>    Brian
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> -éric
>>>> On 15/02/2024, 20:42, "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Éric,
>>>> Thanks. With your AD hat partially on, do you think that an Informational document can request the IESG to obsolete a Proposed Standard?
>>>> If so, I'd personally be happy to make this draft informational and change the RFC2119 keywords to plain English. That would clarify that it is, as David Schinazi says, aspirational.
>>>> Regards
>>>> Brian
>>>> On 15-Feb-24 22:15, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>>>>> [Top posting and without any special hat]
>>>>> 
>>>>> Brian and Bob, this is a good idea to move forward and keep this valuable feature of IPv6: LLA
>>>>> 
>>>>> Like David S, I do not think that this is the IETF remit to specify UI though, i.e., an informational document seems more adequate to me (again as individual).
>>>>> 
>>>>> BTW, I often enter URLs without a keyboard with 1- or 2-dimension QR code. Should this be part of the I-D as well ? (more complex than having 2 boxes to enter data) as QR codes are often printed on stickers on IoT devices
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just my 0,01 EUR
>>>>> 
>>>>> -éric
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12/02/2024, 23:15, "ipv6 on behalf of Brian E Carpenter" <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Were there any other comments on this draft? Are there people who disagree with this new approach? If not, is it appropriate to consider WG adoption already?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Brian Carpenter
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 26-Jan-24 14:01, Gyan Mishra wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I read the draft and it looks good and makes sense.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> <http://www.verizon.com/> <http://www.verizon.com/&gt;> <http://www.verizon.com/&gt;> <http://www.verizon.com/&amp;gt;&gt;>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Gyan Mishra*
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> /Network Solutions A//rchitect /
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> /Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com> <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>> <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com> <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>>>//
>>>>>> /
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> /M 301 502-1347
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> /
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 2:58 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As the WG may have noticed, draft-ietf-6man-rfc6874bis has been stuck in the IESG since March 2023, despite multiple revisions and discussions with the ADs and other objectors, particularly those in the W3C and browser (WHATWG**) communities.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We (Brian and Bob) have reluctantly concluded that the disconnects on this topic between the IETF, the W3C and WHATWG are such that an acceptable compromise cannot be reached.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We therefore propose to transform the discussion by withdrawing rfc6874bis and RFC6874, and replacing them by a generic requirement that when a user interface supports the input of IPv6 addresses, it MUST support the input of link-local addresses with interface IDs (a.k.a. zone IDs). How any particular software tool does this is a choice for its implementer.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A first draft has just been submitted, please comment. It intentionally makes no reference whatever to browser or other web issues.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Brian Carpenter
>>>>>> Bob Hinden
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 11:51:18 -0800
>>>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>>
>>>>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>>
>>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org> <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>> <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org> <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Internet-Draft draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt is now available.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Title: Entering IPv6 Zone Identifiers in User Interfaces
>>>>>> Authors: Brian Carpenter
>>>>>> Robert M. Hinden
>>>>>> Name: draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.txt
>>>>>> Pages: 7
>>>>>> Dates: 2024-01-15
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This document describes how the zone identifier of an IPv6 scoped
>>>>>> address, defined in the IPv6 Scoped Address Architecture (RFC 4007),
>>>>>> should be entered into a user interface. It obsoletes RFC 6874.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Discussion Venue
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Discussion of this document takes place on the 6MAN mailing list
>>>>>> (ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org> <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>> <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org> <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>>), which is archived at
>>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&amp;gt;&gt;>
>>>>>> (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&gt;> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/&amp;gt;&gt;>).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt;> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt;> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&gt;> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui/&amp;gt;&gt;>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui-00.html&amp;gt;&gt;>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at:
>>>>>> rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>>>>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org> <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org>> <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org> <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org>>>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce&gt;> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce&amp;gt;&gt;>
>>>>>> 
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