Re: [lmap] What is broadband?

["Sharam Hakimi" <[e-mail]>]

Marc,

I think the management agent that a wireless device might use would be
somewhat different than a wire device as there are metrics that a
wireless device has, that do not exist in a wire device. My opinion.

 

Sharam

 

 

From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of
Marc Linsner
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 2:37 PM
To: Sharam Hakimi
Cc: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [lmap] What is broadband?

 

Sharam,

 

IMO, the only difference between wireless and wired are the test metrics
that can be performed.  LMAP is concerned with the management of the
measurement clients, controllers, and collectors.  Until further thought
proves otherwise, I don't see any difference in the management of
devices on any of the layer 1/2s.

 

The specifics you mention, Signal Strength and Roaming, should be dealt
with in the definition of the test metric.

 

-Marc-

 

 

 

	James,

	I think mixing testing of wireless and wire technologies
confuses the issues. One wireless is WiFi which is the extension of LAN
and the other is the cellular network. They both have different
requirements and two major conditions in both

	                Signal Strength

	                Roaming

	 

	have great effect on the achieved performance which does not
exist in the wire condition . Some of these performance issues might
also be better resolved in layer 2 rather than layer 3 and above. For
example, before I run any throughput test I want to make sure that I
have the highest strength signal possible be it WiFi or Cellular
wireless connection ( and stay stationary during the test). On the other
hand if I am trying to find the best location for signal strength a
throughput test might not be the best tool for the job.

	 

	I would suggest to keep the two separate at least for the short
term.

	 

	Sharam

	  

	 

	From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of James Miller
	Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 10:58 PM
	To: Shane Amante
	Cc: Benoit Claise; Bugenhagen,Michael K; [e-mail]
	Subject: Re: [lmap] What is broadband?

	 

	I agree Shane--was what I was trying to get at. :)

	 

	Our early FCC focus was basically the Access network but I think
we're all making the point that the mix-n-match of the network
measurement pieces will be driven by a particular user's use case.  

	 

	For our FCC work, the focus (discussed in more detail in our
reports) was on understanding the performance in the segment under the
control of a carrier delivering broadband to a given consumer.
Naturally many other elements affect an end user's experience but our
initial interest was on understanding that segment for the purposes of
providing better information to the consumer about the portion of
Internet performance that the carrier provides.  The FCC's focus and
history is on that piece and so it makes sense that it might begin
there, but a particular carrier's focus might mirror the access network
focus, but perhaps with less market-trend orientation and more
diagnostic in flavor.  Maybe LMAP together with other protocols (TR69
and other BBForum work for example) could benefit all those use cases.

	 

	In recent meetings we've discussed other more targeted
mini-studies on things like CDN or in-home Wifi performance.  Other
potential LMAP users already focus their work on these or other elements
of the network.  I would envision the LMAP work could provide the glue
between any of these elements and different use cases.  Worth noting
that much of the initial discussions in the FCC's Next-Gen group were on
the potential value of standardized interfaces between such different
elements of measurement infrastructure.

	 

	Another element that's probably worth noting is that the use
cases also may direct the actual tests that someone wants to run.  I
would imagine the actual tests you might want to run for evaluating
in-home LAN, access network, CDN, mobile networks may vary.  So I think
the work on the test registry and other IPPM work on new tests will also
improve our definitions and understanding of "broadband performance".

	 

	As always my personal views and not the FCC's.. possible valued
at less than $.02  :)

	On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Shane Amante
<[e-mail]> wrote:

	James, All,

	 

	On Mar 7, 2013, at 7:30 PM, James Miller
<[e-mail]> wrote:

		I believe that Henning had commented at some point that
the LMAP definition he contemplated had "architecture" as the 'A'
element but certainly access is an important piece.  I think one of the
problems that has been discussed also on the LMAP and our FCC Next-Gen
lists is that a complete view of LMAP performance measurements would
implicate elements from the user's laptop, through wireless and other
local LAN, carriers access networks, Tier 1 and other peering networks,
the application host side and everything in between.  Clearly there
would be a lot of technologies included within that functional scope.

	 

	I agree that access is important, but not to the exclusion of
everything else that constitutes an Internet end-user customer
experience or, alternatively, an Enterprise end-user customer experience
-- which is what I believe you're saying above?  That's why it will be
important to, at some point, figure out *if*, and then how, to try to
segment the portions of the end-to-end path that you describe above so
we can attribute good or bad performance to a particular portion of the
path so that, ultimately, the correct network operator can be contacted
to look into the problem further.  I do not believe that this requires
us to break down the end-to-end path on a router-hop by router-hop
basis, but rather we need to be able to identify 'sign posts' along the
path that can correlate well to end-to-end path.

	 

	-shane

	 

	
	
	
	

	For reference, in the FCC Measuring Broadband America Program we
focused on measurement from the consumers' broadband modem through the
carriers network to where it connects to a tier one peering point.  LMAP
should be able to address the broad mix of other use cases that would
have a mix of other elements and motivations.

	 

	Graphic in Report at page 9.
http://transition.fcc.gov/cgb/measuringbroadbandreport/2Methodology.pdf

	On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Bugenhagen, Michael K
<[e-mail]> wrote:

	The word "access" should be key here as part of the definition
provided we are talking about an Internet service, which is the second
component.   I don't really  think we are building tests that won't work
on smaller pipes so questioning if it really 'broadband' or not is
correct IMO.

	 

	
	
	Sent from my iPhone

	
	On Mar 7, 2013, at 9:41 AM, "Shane Amante"
<[e-mail]> wrote:

		Benoit, 

		 

		On Mar 7, 2013, at 3:47 AM, Benoit Claise
<[e-mail]> wrote:

			Dear all,
			
			I started to review the drafts, and I will start
posting a few questions to the list.
			Open questions, clarifying questions, in order
to generate some discussions.
			Disclaimer: I have not yet read the entire list
archive. Apologize in advance if some points have been discussed
already. 
			
			Here is my first question. What is broadband in
the LMAP context?
			Is it DSL, cable, ETTH, Fiber to the home?  Is
LMAP technology independent?
			And I see also "enterprise edge router",
"cellular data or satellite" in draft-schulzrinne-lmap-requirements. In
or out?
			Or do we have in mind a phase approach, starting
with the "enterprise edge router" first, and then home network?

		 

		Speaking for the network I operate, I'm very much an
advocate of saying that "Enterprise Edge Router" is "in-scope".  We
would very much benefit from a standards-based measurement enablement
and collection regime vs. mostly proprietary, and non-scalable,
approaches that exist today.

		 

		This is not to diminish the importance of similar test
capabilities for residential broadband use-cases.  We absolutely need to
work on those, as well.  

		 

		With respect to priority, my hope is that we do not have
to choose to prioritize one over the other.  Rather, I would hope that
both can be developed in parallel, because both -- at least, IMO -- have
a substantially overlapping set of requirements/features. 

		 

		My $0.02,

		 

		-shane

		 

		
		
		
		

		Interestingly, I don't know what A stands for in LMAP,
if it stands for something.
		According to
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/WikiStart, the A doesn't stand
for anything.
		However, looking at the different draft titles, there is
some confusion.

		   draft-linsner-lmap-use-cases-0 title is Large-Scale
Broadband Measurement Use Cases
		   draft-schulzrinne-lmap-requirements-00.txt title is
Large-Scale Measurement of Broadband Performance
		   draft-boucadair-lmap-considerations-00, Large scale
Measurement of Access network Performance (LMAP):
		      Requirements and Issues from a Network Provider
Perspective

		
		Some more discussions, on the mailing list or during the
BoF, on this topic would be appreciated.
		
		Regards, Benoit
		
		
		
		

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