Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - where to expect media?
Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> Tue, 21 May 2013 22:53 UTC
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 01:53:50 +0300
From: Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>
Organization: Jitsi
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To: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
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Cc: mmusic <mmusic@ietf.org>, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - where to expect media?
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On 22.05.13, 01:38, Justin Uberti wrote: > Lots of discussion here; is this an accurate summary of the discussed > behavior? Mostly yes. Just a couple of nitpicks: > 1) BUNDLE offerers must be able to receive on any port (until they get a > BUNDLE-compatible answer) Apparently we are going for: BUNDLE offerers must be able to receive *bundled* data on any port except for that on the last m= line. They must also be prepared to received unbundled data on any port. > 2) Once the answer is received, bundling is activated, I suppose bundling should be active before the answer is received and it can be deactivated when that happens. Emil > and BUNDLEs use > the port of the first non-rejected m= line in the offer > 2a) at this point, the other ports can be discarded > 3) All m= lines offered in a BUNDLE must be present in the answer, > unless they are rejected > 3a) no selective unbundling/BUNDLE splitting is permitted > > > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu > <mailto:pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>> wrote: > > On 5/21/13 4:45 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: > > Hey Paul, > > On 20.05.13, 18:09, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > > On 5/20/13 10:51 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: > > Hey Christer, > > On 20.05.13, 17:16, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > What happens when the offerer knows the > answerer has bundle > support, sends all m-lines with the same > port, then the > answerer splits the first line away from > the bundle? Would the > answerer still send everything to the > same port? > > > We discussed this week, > > Yes, sorry, I didn't follow this closely. > > and the outcome (at least my read of it :) > was that the answerer > is not allowed to split any m- lines away > from the bundle in this > case. Instead the answerer will have to send > a new offer for the > split, allowing new ports to be negotiated > at both ends. > > > OK, so shouldn't the same thing happen in the > case with different > ports? > > > I suggested that it should never be allowed to split > an m- line from > a bundle group in an answer, but others had other > opinions. > > > I don't see how we could allow it in one case and > disallow it in the > other. The only difference between the two cases is how > informed the > offerer is about the answerers bundle support > capabilities and I don't > really understand why this would influence the decision > to allow > splitting bundles one way or the other. > > > It is a different case because the same port *can't* both be > used as the > bundle port and a port for an unbundled m-line. > > > Why not? Obviously the offerer was prepared to demultiplex traffic > there. Why wouldn't it be able to continue doing so even if the > answerer > would prefer to receive it separately? > > > The point of wanting the one line unbundled is so that it can be > *received* on a different address/port. Perhaps there is a separate > device or process that will be supporting that one, that must be > reached at its own addr/port. > > Unless you expect that this would have a common addr/port on the > offering side and different addr/ports on the answering side. But we > investigated that approach early in the bundle discussions, and gave > it up. > > > Note that I am not defending such an approach. I'd much prefer that > splitting is only allowed when re-offering. > > HOWEVER, it would still not help in the case where > the 1st m- line is > rejected. > > > Well, how about looking at it this way: the offerer > specifies a bundle > port in the first m=line. This also happens to be the > port for the first > media line but the two are different things and just > happen to have the > same value for reasons related to syntax and convenience. > > A bundle supporting answerer should understand this. > After receiving the > offer that answerer has learned the bundle port number. > Rejecting the > first m=line in the answer does not change this. > > > There are many reasons that an answerer may reject an m-line. > It is *possible* that it is rejecting it because it has a > problem with > the address (c=) for the m-line in the offer. If so, then if > you insist > on using it as the bundle address, even if the m-line is > refused, then > there is no way for the answerer to refuse it. > > (*Why* it would have a problem is an open question. Maybe > its IPv6 and > the answerer can't use it, or maybe its an FQDN and it can't be > resolved. I realize this is unlikely. But making the > assumption that the > address must be acceptable to the answerer is IMO not a good > idea.) > > > Aha! That's a good point. > > Still, the thing that I don't quite understand is: if the > answerer has a > problem with the c= line, how could that problem only apply to > the first > m= line and not to the entire bundle? > > > Presumably this would only happen if the c= for were not all the > same in the offer. Certainly that is possible. When allocating > "ports" for each m-line one might also end up with different addresses. > > > Of course the answer would come with the first m=line > having a 0 port > but the offerer would then just learn the bundle port > number at the > first m=line with a non-zero port. > > > I presume you must have a motivation for wanting to go this way. > Are you thinking this will simplify the implementation? > > > No. The implementation is going to be slightly more complicated > indeed > because instead of having one bundle demuxing socket and two regular > ones (well ... if rtcp demuxing counts as regular) you would > have three > of them. I don't think this would be particularly horrifying in > terms of > complexity though. > > Still, I think being consistent about the ports where one could get > multiplexed data is a good thing, and it could help (humans) when > analysing traffic and debugging network issues. > > > Consistency is good. But isn't it just as consistent to say that the > first *accepted* m-line defines the bundle addr/port as it is to say > that the first offered m-line? > > Thanks, > Paul > > > _________________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/__listinfo/mmusic > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic> > > -- https://jitsi.org
- [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - wher… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Kevin Dempsey
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Dale R. Worley
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Suhas Nandakumar
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Dale R. Worley
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle offer with different ports - … Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] When a bundle offer is forked Cullen Jennings (fluffy)