Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP for?
ianG <iang@iang.org> Wed, 25 March 2015 23:33 UTC
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 17:32:39 +0000
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Subject: Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP for?
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On 25/03/2015 00:30 am, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: > On Wed, 2015-03-25 at 00:17 +0000, ianG wrote: >> I think differently - I think a system that doesn't target the masses is >> doomed. > Any proofs for this? Yup. > OpenPGP (probably not targeted for the masses) > => still okay and secure PGP - pretty good privacy - was targetted at the command line masses of the pre-web Internet of 1992. Still ok, still secure, but ... The definition of the masses has moved on. OpenPGP no longer targets the masses. And, in my view, unless something good comes out of the current Yahoo-google-friends partnership, will slowly fade. > X.509 (absolutely targeted for the masses) > => inherently broken (unless of course one trusts the Mozilla > CAs, e.g. turktrust and CNNIC O:-) ) No. It never targetted the masses. They only tell you in their marketing that it's "for the masses" so as to appease the browsers which have users as clients. You bought that because they kept saying it so many times they believe it themselves. But no. x.509/PKI/CAs are for the corporates. x.509 is irrelevant for privacy, expecially of the PGP variety. And in the pre-web telco 1980s days the fixed-line masses, it was never intended to be a privacy system, but an anti-privacy system. It was intended to map the world's population for the exploitation and control by the world's telcos, being national champions and in bed with governments and intel. > XMPP (*intended* for the masses, but basically failed (actually, mostly > thanks to the big players and greedy companies like wotzapp) > => well, at least people have their freedom Hmmm, I don't know why it failed. It didn't fail because of the *zapp companies, they simply did a better job. Yes, I agree that the players wrote things like OTR as privacy, but I would agree that essentially they failed, it's another lesson. Let's learn from it. > Skype,Hangouts,Wotzapp (targeted for the masses, backed as such by the > big players) Yup. > => people completely surrender to the vendors and > their conditions (and don't these typically > even include that the vendor may do basically > anything he likes with the data, including > selling it?) Right. So let's take google mail. google's meta is data data data. All your data are belong us. Which meant that google had conflicted inventives, which got sliced open by NSA. Hence today's story. Hence, I have difficulty in saying that google are PGP people in the sense of pretty good privacy - who we are on this list are about. Skype I would say were much more our sort of people, until they sold to ebay. Then their new masters had ... different ideas, but that story has never been told in public, so let's not get distracted. But back to your question: do we need to target the masses to survive? Yes. Skype, google, Whatsapp, snapchat, Facebook, Apple iMessage, etc are still all in business and are providing revenues, and they provided what privacy they did as a secondary to delivering a revenue-generating service to the masses. Absolutely. Whereas the PGP community took the old 1992 model of privacy absolutism, and found that their brief spurt of success in building a community around key signing parties and so forth ... was steamrollered by the wider onslaught of the open web. iang
- Re: [openpgp] New encryption formats for messaging Christoph Anton Mitterer
- Re: [openpgp] New encryption formats for messaging ianG
- Re: [openpgp] New encryption formats for messaging Christoph Anton Mitterer
- Re: [openpgp] New encryption formats for messaging ianG
- Re: [openpgp] New encryption formats for messaging Christoph Anton Mitterer
- [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP for? ianG
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Christoph Anton Mitterer
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Falcon Darkstar Momot
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Werner Koch
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Stephen Paul Weber
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Stephen Paul Weber
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Wyllys Ingersoll
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Clint Adams
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … ianG
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … ianG
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Tim Bray
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Christoph Anton Mitterer
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … John Kreznar
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Werner Koch
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Brian Sniffen
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Bill Frantz
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Christoph Anton Mitterer
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … Christoph Anton Mitterer
- [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification [was: Re:… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification [was:… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification [was:… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification [was:… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- [openpgp] public logging of e-mail certificates [… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [openpgp] public logging of e-mail certificat… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] public logging of e-mail certificat… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [openpgp] public logging of e-mail certificat… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification [was:… Derek Atkins
- Re: [openpgp] public logging of e-mail certificat… Brian Sniffen
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification [was:… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] public logging of e-mail certificat… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] Manifesto - who is the new OpenPGP … ianG
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Werner Koch
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Christoph Anton Mitterer
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Christoph Anton Mitterer
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Werner Koch
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Derek Atkins
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Christoph Anton Mitterer
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Christoph Anton Mitterer
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Christoph Anton Mitterer
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Werner Koch
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification ianG
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification [was:… ianG
- Re: [openpgp] public logging of e-mail certificat… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [openpgp] public logging of e-mail certificat… ianG
- [openpgp] New encryption formats for messaging David Leon Gil
- Re: [openpgp] OpenPGP private certification Ben McGinnes