[re-ECN] "Is a standard required?"
John Leslie <john@jlc.net> Thu, 29 April 2010 10:29 UTC
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 06:29:34 -0400
From: John Leslie <john@jlc.net>
To: Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>
Message-ID: <20100429102934.GE14169@verdi>
References: <4BD6F2DD.3040202@cisco.com> <EE00404438E9444D90AEA84210DC4067A3740C@pacdcexcmb05.cable.comcast.com> <046e01cae754$bb3bd490$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> <4BD94573.6060007@cisco.com>
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Subject: [re-ECN] "Is a standard required?"
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Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com> wrote: > ["David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net> wrote:] > >> I think the biggest questions regarding CONEX so far are: >> >> - "Is this at the point where standardization is required, or is this >> research?" >> >> - "Is a standard required because there are multiple vendors getting >> demand from multiple operators for this type of solution to the stated >> problem?" (I'll come back to these, but probably in a different post.) > These are the key questions that initiated the search for additional > information during the review. > > Normally you do not need standards unless you are going to get > multi-vendor deployments in live networks - hence my questions to the > list about who was likely to deploy and in which type of network. Please forgive me, Stewart, but that sounds like a Cisco view. :^( IETF is not a plain-vanilla Standards Development Organization. We do not have vendors as members, so vendor demand is not what drives our work. Instead, we define standards so that customers can ask their vendors for a feature which is well-enough-defined to be implemented by the vendors with a high probability that it will interoperate. It's quite normal for us to design standards that never see implementation by multiple vendors. I can understand how you might see that as wasteful and want to change it, but I seriously advise that new IESG members _not_ set out to change the way IETF operates. > I am not for a moment suggesting that the IxTF should not do the IPv6 > experimental demonstration of the use of the technology, but the > question arose as to whether we needed an IETF WG to do that. This sounds like a reasonable question; but IRTF tends strongly to be academic in nature, operating under a very different timetable. Frankly, if we want experimental demonstration on any particular schedule, IRTF is not the place to send that work. > If there are IANA policy issues associated with the IPv6 codepoints > needed to run the experiment, we can run a much lighter weight process > to get experimental codepoints than to set up and manage a WG. No doubt, such experimental codepoints should be defined regardless. Please feel free to sponsor an RFC to do so. But the work we envision does not want "experimental codepoints" -- we want something where customers can ask vendors to implement a feature. In the IPv4 world, there was indeed a need to "back out a failed experiment without a trace". There is no such need in IPv6: it's just fine to leave an IPv6 codepoint unused. > If the experimental work (which can run a lot faster without the > overhead of standardization) We've already run experiments, near the limit of what can be done without interoperability among vendors... > demonstrates that CONEX technology is an economic benefit to > providers, or to the owners of enterprise networks, I'm not sure how we _could_ demonstrate that -- typically the economic issues are not addressed by IETF (our mindset _really_ doesn't match well with Harvard Business School). > re-running the BOF to set up a WG and create a standard will be > pushing on an open door. Among other things, we've already had two BoFs: the obstacles to holding a third BoF are formidable. > - Stewart Again, thank you for discussing this openly. I'd like to point to the ALTO WG, trying to develop a scavenger- class service. They want to back off especially quickly if there turns out to be congestion. They "expect" near-zero congestion; and IMHO a tool allowing them to say so in every packet might help: a middlebox changing _nothing_ within the packet could recognise the scavenger-class service and give quicker feedback. (This is not intended as a serious proposal to ALTO, but rather as an example of what could be done given ConEx tools. Without some way to differentiate scavenger-class, ISPs like Comcast are forced to treat scavenger-class the same as web-browsing.) -- John Leslie <john@jlc.net>
- [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid comm… philip.eardley
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … Mcdysan, David E
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … philip.eardley
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … philip.eardley
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … ken carlberg
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … philip.eardley
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … Leslie Daigle
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … Mcdysan, David E
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … Georgios Karagiannis
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … Alissa Cooper
- [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for rapid … philip.eardley
- Re: [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for ra… ken carlberg
- Re: [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for ra… philip.eardley
- Re: [re-ECN] New draft Conex charter - for rapid … philip.eardley
- Re: [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for ra… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for ra… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for ra… Lars Eggert
- Re: [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for ra… John Leslie
- Re: [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for ra… philip.eardley
- Re: [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for ra… John Leslie
- Re: [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for ra… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for ra… Leslie Daigle
- Re: [re-ECN] FW: New draft Conex charter - for ra… Lars Eggert
- [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Review John Leslie
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… John Leslie
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… ken carlberg
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… John Leslie
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… ken carlberg
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Leslie Daigle
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… David Harrington
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… ken carlberg
- [re-ECN] "Is a standard required?" John Leslie
- Re: [re-ECN] "Is a standard required?" Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [re-ECN] "Is a standard required?" John Leslie
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… John Leslie
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Mcdysan, David E
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Leslie Daigle
- Re: [re-ECN] Conex charter - now in External Revi… Kevin Mason