Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec
Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> Mon, 02 April 2012 05:28 UTC
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From: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 22:28:34 -0700
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To: "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>
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Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec
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Note that H.264 isn't even under discussion here. Also, my question on H.263 hasn't been answered yet. I do wonder about the patent situation there! Cheers, Silvia. On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Paul E. Jones <paulej@packetizer.com> wrote: > Stephan, > >> The most commonly cited timeline for a widely in use technology to be >> "save" from a patent viewpoint, based on equitable defenses such as laches >> (in the US) is six years. In some countries of significant size, this >> time is longer, and in others, equitable defenses do not exist. (Very >> briefly, and perhaps incorrectly put, those equitable defenses allow a >> defendant to argue successfully that a patent cannot be enforced as the >> right holder knew that the patent claim was likely being infringed, and >> did not enforce the patent.). > > Recall that Unisys forced people to pay royalties for using the GIF file > format long after it became widely popular. The company asserted IPR claims > on GIF since it used a compression algorithm to which it acquired the > rights, and it started doing so right near the end of the 20-year period > during which a patent is considered valid. > > In short, I really do not think one should ever assume it might be safe to > use any technology. > >> In addition, as I pointed out in the meeting, the use of a video codec >> created by a body such as MPEG or ITU-T SG16 has the advantage of that the >> patents of all participating players are available at least under >> Reasonable and Non Discriminatory (RAND) terms. This may sound like a Bad >> Thing if you operate under a business model that prevents you to pay >> anything for patent licenses, but it is surely a Good Thing if you are >> willing to dish out a moderate amount of money for a license. RAND >> recently has gotten teeth, not so much in terms of the monetary >> compensation aspect, but in terms of difficulty (if not unavailability) to >> obtain injunctive relive, among others. H.26x and the MPEG standards >> benefit from RAND commitments, VP8, AFAIK, does not. > > I believe your point here is perhaps worth even more consideration. > > I really know nothing about the IPR that exists or might be claimed on VP8. > That said, I know there has such an incredible amount of work by so many > companies to produce H.264 that I would be utterly surprised to find that > VP8 does not infringe on something. All of the technology that went into > H.264 represents only a subset of all of the IPR that exists in the video > coding space. > > It's the rest of the IPR, a bunch of IPR owned by companies who actually > have significant investment in video coding technologies, that I believe > people should worry about. Everyone who worked on H.264 did so as part of > an open standards process, as you mention above. They spent a lot of time > and energy in the process, coming to an agreement to license the technology > that went into H.264. They did not agree to license technology that did not > go into H.264. So, if one of those participating companies were to > subsequently sue over some IPR used in VP8, I would not dare call them a > troll. > > Trolls always exist and may even lay claims to H.264, but I suspect it would > be much harder for a troll to lay claim to H.264. That codec spent years in > development with input from tons of people. If a troll were to come in and > lay claim to some part of H.264, I suspect there would be several companies > that would stand up and beat them down. After all, a claim against H.264 > would not only present a problem for the defendant in a lawsuit, but would > be an issue for every company with IPR on H.264. Further, no matter what > part of H.264 such a troll might decide to pick on, there are a number of > world-class engineers who (as you indicated about H.263) could probably name > the person or persons who contributed the section of text, algorithm, > procedure, etc., all of which is covered with a known license. > > VP8 does not have the benefit of such significant peer review and > collaboration, nor does it benefit from any IPR licensing agreements from > legitimate companies holding tons of video coding-related IPR. > > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Basil Mohamed Gohar
- [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Dean Willis
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Piers O'Hanlon
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Gregory Maxwell
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Dean Willis
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec David Benham (dbenham)