Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopening of decisions
Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> Thu, 14 February 2013 09:46 UTC
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 04:44:44 -0500
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopening of decisions
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On 2/13/2013 5:03 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > None of what I suggest would change the API. At most, it would have > removed the in-band handshake messages in exchange for loosening some > of the guarantees. And I've been trained to value the deletion of > code highly. That seemed like a good trade. I think the no-negotiation proposal would require various API changes if you work out the details. I understand the wish to reduce code. (You do realize we're running over a lightweight stack like SCTP over DTLS over ICE/TURN over UDP, right? ;-) However, I'm not sure that you're actually reducing code by shifting to SDP (I think you're just moving the code/complexity, as the existing structures for negotiating m= lines can't be reused here I believe). And I think the SDP+no-negotiation-open proposal ends up with yet more complexity (and importantly, more application (JS) complexity). The least complex IMHO is the 0-RTT in-band option, though it's similar in complexity to the current "pure" inband (without accelerated call-start creation via SDP - i.e. 1.5RTT for all opens). > And timing? It wasn't until you presented at the interim that I > realized just how little value the in-band handshake was adding. Which Interim? This one (where I wasn't presenting the in-band protocol, though discussion moved there), or Stockholm, where it was presented (and again at Atlanta where we added the 'protocol' field, which was about the only major commentary). I realize someone can (and will) object at any stage; I just wish objections of this fundamental nature were made (a lot) earlier. > In terms of the specifics of your fast open proposal, what do you do > with the message(s) that arrive on channels that you reject? How does > this surface in the API? There is no rejection. Creation of DataChannels (per the JS API) is purely declarative. If you (as an application) wish to 'reject' a channel, either throw the object away or call .close() on it if you want to be nice to the sender. > I'll do a blow-by-blow on your points below, if you want to continue > the conversation. If we're exchanging rhetoric bombs, I see little > point. No, I'm quite willing to continue the conversation; to an extent (how much to be determined by the WG) the snake has snuck out of the bag and we now have to deal with the comments (both yours and Justin/Peter's). I will concede I have an interest in retaining a solution similar to the one I've proposed (in-band or preferably 0-RTT), as I have it coded in Firefox, used in applications and largely debugged and on-track for release to production in 12-18 weeks or so (and major changes might cause problems with that and/or future version incompatibilities). That's the impact of revisiting issues; we considered DataChannels a critical component to have from the start of WebRTC and put a lot of effort into first discussing it on the lists and then implementing it. We began implementation a year ago, and have tracked changes from the lists and drafts since then. But that isn't the only consideration. Partly my comments were aimed at all instances where we go back (and go back again) with progress being elusive, not just this one issue. -- Randell Jesup randell-ietf@jesup.org
- [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation Michael Tuexen
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation Michael Tuexen
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation Michael Tuexen
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation Martin Thomson
- [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopening o… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Michael Tuexen
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Michael Tuexen
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Michael Tuexen
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Michael Tuexen
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Michael Thornburgh
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Michael Tuexen
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Michael Tuexen
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Michael Tuexen
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Channel Negotiation and reopeni… Harald Alvestrand