Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI
Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> Wed, 06 November 2013 01:01 UTC
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References: <CE9E91B2.1BEAA%mzanaty@cisco.com> <8EB7C7F2-105D-4CFB-AC06-F8BB331A4736@cisco.com> <5279339B.9040506@bbs.darktech.org> <CAOJ7v-3xE-e5Tdbw-V27eF38a6PhEYZEZwVMPGp8m+ogTWanCQ@mail.gmail.com> <5279866E.1040604@bbs.darktech.org>
From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 17:01:01 -0800
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To: cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI
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True P2P isn't always possible, witness TURN. So everyone deploying a reliable WebRTC app is going to have bandwidth costs. Those costs will be higher and/or quality much lower, when using H.261 or comparable codecs. On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 3:59 PM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote: > Justin, > > What happens to P2P video chat? Are we throwing that out of the > window? A P2P-based mesh is superior to one with AWS in the middle for a > couple of reasons: > > - Privacy > - Cost > - Consistent latency > - Ease of deployment > > Gili > > > On 05/11/2013 6:25 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > > The cost equation for CPU versus network is shifted enough in favor of CPU > that considering old codecs like H.261 makes no financial sense. If you > look at AWS pricing, the CPU cost of reducing bitrate from 1 Mbps to 750 > Kbps is more than made up by the network cost. > > http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/ > 250 Kbps * 1 hour = $0.11 > high-compute instance for an hour = $0.05 (1 HD transcode = 4 SD > transcodes) > > Transcoding isn't the bogeyman people are making it out to be. > > > On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:06 AM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote: > >> Cullen, >> >> In light of the fact that vendors are highly polarized on this topic, >> I'd like to suggest the following voting order: >> >> 1. Should *both* H.264 and VP8 be MTI? >> >> If there is a consensus for yes, stop here. >> >> 2a. Should *only* H.264 be MTI? or, >> 2b. Should *only* VP8 be MTI? >> >> If there is a consensus for either one, stop here. >> >> 3a. Should *only* H.261 be MTI? or, >> 3b. Should no codec be MTI? (this implies transcoding) >> >> Given the final choice (H.261 or no MTI) I suspect many vendors would >> choose H.261 and upgrade to H.264/VP8 at runtime. No one really wants to go >> back to the days of transcoding. >> >> Gili >> >> >> On 05/11/2013 12:44 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: >> >>> Right now there is no proposal on the table for the MTI to be both VP8 >>> and H.264 and the deadline was back in October so it's not a topic the >>> chairs feel ready to discuss in the thursday meeting. >>> >>> I will note that in the past when this idea was discussed, the people >>> who were concerned about IPR for either codec pointed out that this could >>> only increased, not decreased, the IPR concerns. >>> >>> The chairs are more concerned about neither choice being acceptable. If >>> we found out that both are acceptable, that will be a good situation and we >>> will find a reasonable way to proceed from there that is acceptable to the >>> WG. Alternative process is the last resort. From a chair point of view, it >>> really better if people actually honestly answer the question in a >>> consensus call instead gaming the system. >>> >>> Cullen - Just one of the chairs and I hope my co-chairs add more but >>> they are both in meetings right now >>> >>> >>> On Nov 5, 2013, at 9:27 AM, "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> This is an important point the chairs must clarify. If there is strong >>>> support for both questions, will the chair interpret that as support >>>> for 2 >>>> MTIs, or declare no consensus, forcing us into alternative processes? I >>>> support both as MTI. But if raising my hand twice increases the >>>> likelihood >>>> of an alternative process, I will only support one (despite objecting to >>>> being forced to support only one). >>>> >>>> Mo >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/5/13, 9:46 AM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 5 November 2013 06:18, Hutton, Andrew <andrew.hutton@unify.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> How would we conclude that the community would like both to be made >>>>> MTI? >>>>> >>>> >>>> If I were to pretend that I am a process wonk, I might say something >>>> like: if the objections to both questions are weak AND if the >>>> objectors are unable to find reasons that pass muster. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rtcweb mailing list >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > >
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Leon Geyser
- [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI bryandonnovan
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Martin J. Dürst