Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering Architecture
"Stastny Richard" <Richard.Stastny@oefeg.at> Sat, 27 May 2006 21:34 UTC
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Subject: Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering Architecture
Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 23:38:16 +0200
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Thread-Topic: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering Architecture
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From: Stastny Richard <Richard.Stastny@oefeg.at>
To: Reinaldo Penno <rpenno@juniper.net>
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ENUM issues should not be discussed in SPEERMINT, just some questions >Enum? When I dial (650) 453 2312, what is there to resolve _inside_ the >wireless network that owns this number apart from the location of the >user? and _outside_? ENUM is about numbers like +16504532312 hello, we are talking E.164 numbers in ENUM, which is international numbers >Now, in the scenario where an external call (for example, a cingular >customer calling a Verizon customer (which owns an original t-mobile >number). How that works today? If you say ENUM I would stand corrected >(and surprised), since LNP has been fully deployed since 2003. Cingular?Verizon? ... we are talking about a global solution here You are a bit US centric here, there is also some 200 other nations ozt there. I have no access to the US LNP database from e.g. Austria So you want to consider US national databases only in speermint? Richard ________________________________ Von: Reinaldo Penno [mailto:rpenno@juniper.net] Gesendet: Sa 27.05.2006 21:30 An: Stastny Richard; Otmar Lendl Cc: speermint@ietf.org Betreff: RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering Architecture Enum? When I dial (650) 453 2312, what is there to resolve _inside_ the wireless network that owns this number apart from the location of the user? Now, in the scenario where an external call (for example, a cingular customer calling a Verizon customer (which owns an original t-mobile number). How that works today? If you say ENUM I would stand corrected (and surprised), since LNP has been fully deployed since 2003. When a user takes its number with them, I assumed this punches a whole in the telephone prefix hierarchy and a specific entry somewhere is needed. Regards, Reinaldo > -----Original Message----- > From: Stastny Richard [mailto:Richard.Stastny@oefeg.at] > Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 4:26 AM > To: Reinaldo Penno; Otmar Lendl > Cc: speermint@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering Architecture > > >I wonder how > >LNP is solved within wireless...A specific entry for each phone? That > >would be crazy. > > Ahem, ENUM? > > I thought that is all what ENUM is about? > > Richard > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Reinaldo Penno [mailto:rpenno@juniper.net] > Gesendet: Sa 27.05.2006 11:04 > An: Otmar Lendl; Patrick Melampy > Cc: Khan, Sohel Q [CTO]; speermint@ietf.org > Betreff: RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering Architecture > > > > Hello, > > I believe the crux of the problem was missed. > > The issue is not really the number of domains. We have today some > 400.000.000 million hosts on the Internet. BGP peers to do not exchange > 400.000.000 million routes, they exchange in the low hundreds of > thousands. > > And why is that? (I guess you know where I'm getting at). That's because > IP addresses lend themselves very well to hierarchical deployment, > compression through prefix/CIDR usage and the like. DNS names are > strings and hence difficult to come up with a similar scheme. > > > I believe that if domains need to be exchanged between peers: > > 1 - Just a limited set would be exchanged and a "default layer 5 route" > (equivalent to a traditional default route) would be used. > > 2 - Compression schemes like *.company.com, regular expressions or the > like would need to be used. Having specific routes to AORs would be > hairy (maybe for the eventual roaming or visiting user). I wonder how > LNP is solved within wireless...A specific entry for each phone? That > would be crazy. > > 3 - Some new scheme that will make somebody rich....until then.. > > I believe subscriptions would be used to exchange mostly "cost" and > policy information and some domains. I use cost here in the layer 3 > sense (number of calls, jitter, whatever). Cost would be an abstract > value or a more specific one (up to the administrator). > > Regards, > > Reinaldo > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Otmar Lendl [mailto:lendl@nic.at] > > Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:29 AM > > To: Patrick Melampy > > Cc: 'Khan, Sohel Q [CTO]'; speermint@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering Architecture > > > > On 2006/05/26 18:05, Patrick Melampy <PMelampy@acmepacket.com> wrote: > > > I suppose like in any distributed routing protocol, there are some > > chicken > > > an egg issues. But consider the following. > > > > > > PREREQUISITES: > > > 1.) You know the destination DOMAIN from either ENUM or other means. > > > > [...] > > > > > > This technique is very similar to TRIP, only its for DOMAINS and not > > partial > > > E.164 numbers. > > > > [...] > > > > > Obviously, the data set could get large, as the list of domains can > be > > > really big. There are some possibilities here... > > > > Let's do a quick estimate on the number of domains involved: > > > > Right now, operators usually give customers URIs of the form > > <number>@<providerdomain>. As long as this is the state of affairs, > > we're fine as the number of providers is quite finite (a few > > thousands, perhaps). > > > > This is like the state of affairs with respect to email, anno 1990. > > Back then customers started to notice that if they use their own > domain > > for email, then they can switch providers without having to change > > their email address. Thus a *lot* of people opted to use their > > own domain for email. > > > > My guess is that the same will happen to SIP. Once customers print > > their SIP uris on business cards, they will want to use their own > > domains. If providers won't support that feature then I suspect that > > the regulators will step in and mandate an URI portability solution > > just as they did in the PSTN with respect to numbers from number > blocks. > > (This could get really nasty protocol-wise, so I guess using customer- > > owned domains is the far better and likelier solution to the porting > > question.) > > > > So: Anything we come up with here in SPEERMINT needs to cope with a > > scenario where the use of customer domains in SIP URIs is just as > > widespread as it is for email. > > > > How many domains are used for email? That's hard to say. There are > > about 60 million gTLD domains and probably more than 20 ccTLD ones. > > Assuming that only a tenth of that is used for email we're at > > 8 million domains. Given the exponential growth any system which > > doesn't scale to at least 10 million domains will be obsolete before > > the ink is dry on the RFC. > > > > So what happens if we do some sort of BGP or TRIP with domains? > > > > Let's say we need at least 100 bytes of state information per domain. > > That makes a full routing table 1 GB worth of data. That also means > > that a new border element needs to exchange that amount of data > > with its peers before it has learned the current state of the > > routing table. > > > > That is some serious amount of data. > > > > > 1.) Have notification point to a published document, and the > document > > lists > > > all of the relevant reachability in real time. Thus any change to > the > > > document would generate a NOTIFICATION. > > > > + a download of up to 1 GB per peer. > > > > > 2.) User partial domains, broken up by the "dots". This may allow > some > > > wildcarding to reduce the number of domains. For instance, a carrier > > like > > > Verizon may have many 100's of domains attached to it, and version > is > > > willing to route and manage SIP traffic to any of them. The NOTIFY > could > > > contain something like: Verizon.com or *.verizon.com to indicate > that > > any > > > domain in Verizon is reachable. > > > > That's helpful if a provider uses subdomains for internal purposes, > > but that won't help you with customer owned domains. > > > > > This technique may work -- and fit nicely into an existing protocol. > All > > we > > > would need to do is define the data models (XML?) and or documents > for > > > exchanging. > > > > I think this technique can work -- if you add an aggregation step > > before the routing scheme. > > > > Take another look at BGP: there you have the concept of an > > Autonomous System and not only that of prefixes. Maybe you need > > something similar. > > > > One approach to cope with hosted SIP domains could be to use the > > hostnames as found in SRV records. E.g. for settings like > > > > _sip._tcp.customer.domain IN SRV 10 10 5060 sip.provider.com > > > > run the routing algorithm on "sip.provider.com" instead > > of "customer.domain". > > > > Another option is to store some AS-equivalent in the customer domain > > and have the routing algorithm operate on that. In my domain-policy > > framework this could be expressed e.g. like > > > > customers.domain IN NAPTR 10 10 "u" "D2P+SIP:route-id" > > "!.*!urn:ietf:speermint:RID:1042!" . > > > > stating that this domain can be reached using the Speermint routing > > logic by using the learned route to RoutingID 1042. > > > > Or, even better, use non-terminals, and thus refer to the ingress > > policy stored in the provider's domain: > > > > customers.domain IN NAPTR "" 10 10 "D2P+SIP" "" provider.com > > > > provider.com. IN NAPTR 10 10 "u" "D2P+SIP:route-id" > > "!.*!urn:ietf:speermint:RID:1042!" . > > > > (+ whatever other facts provider.com wants to announce about his > > reachability.) > > > > This combination of our ideas can indeed work and scale to an > > unlimited number of customer-owned domains. > > > > /ol > > -- > > < Otmar Lendl (lendl@nic.at) | nic.at Systems Engineer > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speermint mailing list > > Speermint@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speermint > > _______________________________________________ > Speermint mailing list > Speermint@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speermint _______________________________________________ Speermint mailing list Speermint@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speermint
- [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering Arch… Khan, Sohel Q [CTO]
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Francois D. Menard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Khan, Sohel Q [CTO]
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Francois D. Menard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Khan, Sohel Q [CTO]
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Francois D. Menard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Francois D. Menard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Brian Rosen
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Francois D. Menard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Andrew Newton
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Brian Rosen
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Richard Shockey
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Richard Shockey
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Henry Sinnreich
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Patrick Melampy
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … David Meyer
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … David Meyer
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … James McEachern
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Reinaldo Penno
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Brian Rosen
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Francois D. Menard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Francois D. Menard
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Duane
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Patrick Melampy
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Duane
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Nieminen Klaus
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … David Meyer
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Francois D. Menard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Francois D. Menard
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Duane
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Reinaldo Penno
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Duane
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Reinaldo Penno
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Reinaldo Penno
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Khan, Sohel Q [CTO]
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Richard Shockey
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Richard Shockey
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Richard Shockey
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Reinaldo Penno
- VS: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Nieminen Klaus
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Francois D. Menard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Khan, Sohel Q [CTO]
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Richard Shockey
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Richard Shockey
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Duane
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Brian Rosen
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Andrew Newton
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Livingood, Jason
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Livingood, Jason
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Malas, Daryl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Brian Rosen
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Reinaldo Penno
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Pfautz, Penn L, GBLAM
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Brian Rosen
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Malas, Daryl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Malas, Daryl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Brian Rosen
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Brian Rosen
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Malas, Daryl
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Patrick Melampy
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Brian Rosen
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Duane
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Lee, Yiu
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Khan, Sohel Q [CTO]
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Duane
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Duane
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Richard Shockey
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Andrew Newton
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Richard Shockey
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Andrew Newton
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Andrew Newton
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Andrew Newton
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Uzelac, Adam
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Stastny Richard
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Uzelac, Adam
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Patrick Melampy
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Otmar Lendl
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Uzelac, Adam
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Andrew Newton
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Livingood, Jason
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Paul Kyzivat
- RE: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Patrick Melampy
- Re: [Speermint] Updated Draft: SPEERMINT Peering … Paul Kyzivat