Re: [tsvwg] [saag] TSVWG WGLC: draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08, closes 23 October 2019

Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> Wed, 09 October 2019 14:32 UTC

Return-Path: <huitema@huitema.net>
X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB5B12010E for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 07:32:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iY-Nxb1tpior for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 07:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E6AB12006E for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 07:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from xse9.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.9] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx66.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <huitema@huitema.net>) id 1iID0z-0005iu-CS for tsvwg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 16:32:34 +0200
Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46pGrw1W7jz3thJ for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 07:32:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [10.5.2.35] (helo=xmail10.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <huitema@huitema.net>) id 1iID0y-0008EX-2Y for tsvwg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 07:32:32 -0700
Received: (qmail 24801 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2019 14:32:31 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.102]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.253]) (envelope-sender <huitema@huitema.net>) by xmail10.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; 9 Oct 2019 14:32:31 -0000
To: "Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
References: <CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630766752@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com>
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFIRX8gBCAC26usy/Ya38IqaLBSu33vKD6hP5Yw390XsWLaAZTeQR64OJEkoOdXpvcOS HWfMIlD5s5+oHfLe8jjmErFAXYJ8yytPj1fD2OdSKAe1TccUBiOXT8wdVxSr5d0alExVv/LO I/vA2aU1TwOkVHKSapD7j8/HZBrqIWRrXUSj2f5n9tY2nJzG9KRzSG0giaJWBfUFiGb4lvsy IaCaIU0YpfkDDk6PtK5YYzuCeF0B+O7N9LhDu/foUUc4MNq4K3EKDPb2FL1Hrv0XHpkXeMRZ olpH8SUFUJbmi+zYRuUgcXgMZRmZFL1tu6z9h6gY4/KPyF9aYot6zG28Qk/BFQRtj7V1ABEB AAG0J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PokBOQQTAQIAIwUC UhFfyAIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJNDCbJVyA1yhbYH/1ud6x6m VqGIp0JcZUfSQO8w+TjugqxCyGNn+w/6Qb5O/xENxNQ4HaMQ5uSRK9n8WKKDDRSzwZ4syKKf wbkfj05vgFxrjCynVbm1zs2X2aGXh+PxPL/WHUaxzEP7KjYbLtCUZDRzOOrm+0LMktngT/k3 6+EZoLEM52hwwpIAzJoscyEz7QfqMOZtFm6xQnlvDQeIrHx0KUvwo/vgDLK3SuruG1CSHcR0 D24kEEUa044AIUKBS3b0b8AR7f6mP2NcnLpdsibtpabi9BzqAidcY/EjTaoea46HXALk/eJd 6OLkLE6UQe1PPzQC4jB7rErX2BxnSkHDw50xMgLRcl5/b1a5AQ0EUhFfyAEIAKp7Cp8lqKTV CC9QiAf6QTIjW+lie5J44Ad++0k8gRgANZVWubQuCQ71gxDWLtxYfFkEXjG4TXV/MUtnOliG 5rc2E+ih6Dg61Y5PQakm9OwPIsOx+2R+iSW325ngln2UQrVPgloO83QiUoi7mBJPbcHlxkhZ bd3+EjFxSLIQogt29sTcg2oSh4oljUpz5niTt69IOfZx21kf29NfDE+Iw56gfrxI2ywZbu5o G+d0ZSp0lsovygpk4jK04fDTq0vxjEU5HjPcsXC4CSZdq5E2DrF4nOh1UHkHzeaXdYR2Bn1Y wTePfaHBFlvQzI+Li/Q6AD/uxbTM0vIcsUxrv3MNHCUAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQUCUhFfyAIb LgEpCRCTQwmyVcgNcsBdIAQZAQIABgUCUhFfyAAKCRC22tOSFDh1UOlBB/94RsCJepNvmi/c YiNmMnm0mKb6vjv43OsHkqrrCqJSfo95KHyl5Up4JEp8tiJMyYT2mp4IsirZHxz/5lqkw9Az tcGAF3GlFsj++xTyD07DXlNeddwTKlqPRi/b8sppjtWur6Pm+wnAHp0mQ7GidhxHccFCl65w uT7S/ocb1MjrTgnAMiz+x87d48n1UJ7yIdI41Wpg2XFZiA9xPBiDuuoPwFj14/nK0elV5Dvq 4/HVgfurb4+fd74PV/CC/dmd7hg0ZRlgnB5rFUcFO7ywb7/TvICIIaLWcI42OJDSZjZ/MAzz BeXm263lHh+kFxkh2LxEHnQGHCHGpTYyi4Z3dv03HtkH/1SI8joQMQq00Bv+RdEbJXfEExrT u4gtdZAihwvy97OPA2nCdTAHm/phkzryMeOaOztI4PS8u2Ce5lUB6P/HcGtK/038KdX5MYST Fn8KUDt4o29bkv0CUXwDzS3oTzPNtGdryBkRMc9b+yn9+AdwFEH4auhiTQXPMnl0+G3nhKr7 jvzVFJCRif3OAhEm4vmBNDE3uuaXFQnbK56GJrnqVN+KX5Z3M7X3fA8UcVCGOEHXRP/aubiw Ngawj0V9x+43kUapFp+nF69R53UI65YtJ95ec4PTO/Edvap8h1UbdEOc4+TiYwY1TBuIKltY 1cnrjgAWUh/Ucvr++/KbD9tD6C8=
Message-ID: <e8c30f3f-606f-0c0d-a7dd-b2bb6f31a9fd@huitema.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 07:32:31 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.1.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630766752@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7CA7698F501F14BA2D4C9F19"
Content-Language: en-US
X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.9
X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.9/32
Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.9/32@xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: ham
X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.07)
X-Recommended-Action: accept
X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0ezqdolHG91LK5q2HN6uCHCpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVmtgLyNCSbpzH FAfjEjL3y0TNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDAxcDYLQWPWOwvKJpm+ErX5j9 EvBvwu01uVCaGVBWGqtomO/BIRhKtO8/U6CRQ/Ab2rBNMmEsKEibQwSU1xBeOHButNDpi1WUXRkr He1vFsYm1aGKgRFqmjZjxZofiz4rFqANMYqm8+U1ocMliIzyKbyme9ldZJ7uNXfg/GfS8fXOC4kn OJkMS8NGDKsP9r3Khy7LI0kfFnXdPP6btp4oBeJDeKRq5oPj2hFJhLx+qI3HlR3ootg7OlA3N5WN re/oppAGOX5cHTu1yz4pRT/9FGrxEaaKeSxe0Wrx6M4G5/WoLsdfEoJI0BNUQ4KpaNyNCwGqOUcw rXf55E8Tb8bmXq4yH8StrboPphDtmrtUkwlUgiZZ2raUFFZA8s/fhxGt7T02ZXdoQxMs//iOE4Fl hiCv9TR+UxzLZWL8hwGBjhoI3W+YcuHfP5PkZb5A+wE5qGdpH54Oa3V8I76VOEvlwLCanpZsarZa LIRpEqA8mZEhjayWUXQRkOKYfN7LXho1R+W9IYIqmfUxYO2USF/2XeTUFqOeKx8Hurg2nQcCVlP2 ie80q3LAG2MiIaIREzT11fq66H0CAWRSFdu9u1IbhLdCp3Zd9clP8wSiJZWbJCgyR6m9bjwevrpB AbKGWcijfjun1VCdAprNSrItE3Dp1pxMPnetLBJMh51NiRRoHIAXsnqcRPla7WWfTg2zbqGfmiK7 x42VjdzChZMe6O/DiVLaBeTIR35/MiUfTTd1C49BfpbuNpiiZ7C20u0UISI71vEjHyvS2QZiR+AZ YvfxEvZFKu+ZM2mB1CpThxyaBpbeNHk15VolAGHS5rCXQKDyCQUljhSWDhWh87HBSLhNUo4qiB0X MVQG2R7iUfOzATaF5R3hQJk8CwyURYKQ0Ye0iR3bHfnMCIEU+nrglojKwJanfcoq9IsR6l/OZb9V MEM=
X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine9.antispamcloud.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/ctPi-nysGSrUNRl_slM8HNYNl60>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [saag] TSVWG WGLC: draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08, closes 23 October 2019
X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Working Group <tsvwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsvwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:32:38 -0000

As the draft mentions:

   The use of transport layer authentication and encryption exposes a

   tussle between middlebox vendors, operators, applications developers

   and users

Much of the draft reads like a lamentation of the horrible consequences
of encrypting transport headers, which looks very much like embracing
the point of view of the middlebox vendors. Expressing that point of
view is of course fine, and it might be enough to change the title,
abstract and introduction to reflect that this is an opinion piece. But
as a transport working group document I would like something a bit more
balanced. It should spend more time acknowledging the ossification and
privacy issues. It should ideally lay the ground work for alternative
management solutions, such as controlled exposure like the spin bit in
QUIC, IP header information, or standardized logs like the QLOG effort.

-- Christian Huitema


On 10/8/2019 2:08 PM, Black, David wrote:
>
> FYI – some OPS area and SEC area eyes on this TSVWG draft now (during
> WGLC) would be a good thing ;-).
>
>  
>
> Thanks, --David (TSVWG co-chair)
>
>  
>
> *From:* Black, David <david.black@emc.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 8, 2019 5:06 PM
> *To:* tsvwg@ietf.org
> *Cc:* Black, David
> *Subject:* WGLC: draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08, closes 23
> October 2019
>
>  
>
> This email announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on:
>
>  
>
> The Impact of Transport Header Confidentiality on Network Operation and
>
>                        Evolution of the Internet
>
>                  draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt/
>
>  
>
> This draft is intended to become an Informational RFC.
>
>  
>
> This WGLC will run through the end of the day on Wednesday, October 23.
>
> That should allow time before the Singapore draft submission cutoff for
>
> the authors to revise the draft with any changes that result from WGLC.
>
>  
>
> Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
> list, although purely
>
> editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the
>
> WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org>  if
> you would like the chairs to
>
> track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process.
>
>  
>
> No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on this draft.
>
>  
>
> Thanks,
>
> David, Gorry and Wes
>
> (TSVWG Co-Chairs)
>
>  
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> saag mailing list
> saag@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/saag