Re: [tsvwg] [saag] TSVWG WGLC: draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08, closes 23 October 2019

Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Wed, 09 October 2019 15:12 UTC

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Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 16:12:35 +0100
From: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
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To: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [saag] TSVWG WGLC: draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08, closes 23 October 2019
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On 09/10/2019, 15:38, Joe Touch wrote:
> +1
>
> IMO, this isn’t a “tussle” so much as “I really want to do something I 
> know I shouldn’t be doing”.
>
> A lot of what transport security prevents is - from the middlebox view 
> - a problem.
>
> For many of us users, preventing middleboxes from doing things like 
> hijacking web, email, and DNS is *exactly* the protection we were seeking.
>
I do not understand this particular comment with respect to this 
document: How does "hijacking web, email, and DNS" relate to whether 
transport headers are encrypted or not? I would have expected a comment 
like this had the document been talking about transport payload (e.g. 
whether to use TLS).

Could you point me at some text that leads you to think the transport 
header encryption impacts application hi-jacking ?

Gorry

> Joe
>
>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 7:32 AM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net 
>> <mailto:huitema@huitema.net>> wrote:
>>
>> As the draft mentions:
>>
>>     The use of transport layer authentication and encryption exposes a
>>     tussle between middlebox vendors, operators, applications developers
>>     and users
>>
>> Much of the draft reads like a lamentation of the horrible 
>> consequences of encrypting transport headers, which looks very much 
>> like embracing the point of view of the middlebox vendors. Expressing 
>> that point of view is of course fine, and it might be enough to 
>> change the title, abstract and introduction to reflect that this is 
>> an opinion piece. But as a transport working group document I would 
>> like something a bit more balanced. It should spend more time 
>> acknowledging the ossification and privacy issues. It should ideally 
>> lay the ground work for alternative management solutions, such as 
>> controlled exposure like the spin bit in QUIC, IP header information, 
>> or standardized logs like the QLOG effort.
>>
>> -- Christian Huitema
>>
>>
>> On 10/8/2019 2:08 PM, Black, David wrote:
>>> FYI – some OPS area and SEC area eyes on this TSVWG draft now 
>>> (during WGLC) would be a good thing ;-).
>>> Thanks, --David (TSVWG co-chair)
>>> *From:*Black, David<david.black@emc.com>
>>> *Sent:*Tuesday, October 8, 2019 5:06 PM
>>> *To:*tsvwg@ietf.org
>>> *Cc:*Black, David
>>> *Subject:*WGLC: draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08, closes 23 
>>> October 2019
>>> This email announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on:
>>> The Impact of Transport Header Confidentiality on Network Operation and
>>>                        Evolution of the Internet
>>>                  draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt/
>>> This draft is intended to become an Informational RFC.
>>> This WGLC will run through the end of the day on Wednesday, October 23.
>>> That should allow time before the Singapore draft submission cutoff for
>>> the authors to revise the draft with any changes that result from WGLC.
>>> Comments should be sent to thetsvwg@ietf.org 
>>> <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>list, although purely
>>> editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the
>>> WG chairs attsvwg-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org>  if 
>>> you would like the chairs to
>>> track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process.
>>> No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on this draft.
>>> Thanks,
>>> David, Gorry and Wes
>>> (TSVWG Co-Chairs)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> saag mailing list
>>> saag@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/saag
>